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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You mean like going through the spouse's wallet/purse and cell phone records? I must have better developed inferior functions than I thought.
    LOL No, I didn't mean that!! What Kate said as her examples of looking for evidence, was just thinking about your interaction with these people in the last however long, and just look at the facts of what was said and done, who's where and when, and seeing if you can still make of it what you've suspected, without the intangible, intuitive elements to make more of things than they really are.

    I'm not sure how this'd work in a romantic context, cos I know romantic love tends to just screw everything around and nobody seems to behave in quite the same way towards this relationship as they do in others because of the immense and almost unique intimacy they entail. But me and Kate weren't talking about those - we were talking about her social anxieties and her fears about making friends and stuff cos she thinks everyone hates her and is talking about her behind her back, or that nobody really likes her and she doesn't fit in and stuff.
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  2. #12
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    While thinking about FL's comments to me, these ideas flashed through my mind and I had to write them down. Perhaps they can help shed some clarity on the nature of the opposites, or springboard further conversation.

    The main point here is that the opposing functions are antithetical of each other -- each one "threatens" the influence and power of the other.

    ---

    Ti: Fe threatens the autonomy and conceptual logic of Ti, which looks at everything in a detached fashion and evaluates it based on inner principles. The rules laid down by Fe seem arbitrary when evaluated by Ti, as they are fabricated by society and change as time passes, whereas the principles that Ti uses to process information are timeless in nature and consistent because they're derived from the natural world and not from social preferences. When thrown into situations demanding Fe, those who run off Ti have no idea what to do because the rules seem so arbitrary and disconnected from the inherent nature of the people and things they are dealing with.

    Fe: Ti threatens the socially constructed relationships on which Fe runs, as Ti is completely unconcerned with them except perhaps in a predictive sense. Ti is only interested in what can be impersonally derived and purposefully ignores anything that seems arbitrary. It shows no real respect for custom that is meant to show the commitment of one person in a culture to another, as well as the type of commitment being reaffirmed. Ti tells Fe that all of its "truth" is merely a phantasm.

    --

    Fi: Te compartmentalizes things based on their external qualities and threatens the ability of Fi to deal with the inner motivations and unique nature of individual people. People and objects alike are organized and assembled and manipulated without real regard for "personal" aspects or personal relevance.

    Te:
    Fi threatens the coherent organization of things and presents things from being neatly categorized. (After all, if EVERYTHING is unique and individual, then nothing can be stuctured -- no categories really exist, because everything and everyone is in their own unique category!) Fi thus ruins efficiency and makes dealing with the objects/people in question much more difficult.

    --

    Se: Ni threatens the data feed of Se, which assumes that everything that is real is that which can be sensed, and there is no other reality except that which is BEING sensed. (Everything else is just a fabrication or a dream.) If one's experience of the data feed is merely one interpretation, then who knows WHAT is real any longer? And how can one depend on the data coming in -- perhaps one's interpretation is wrong? Ni threatens to nip Se behavior in the bud, causing doubt in the hard data itself.

    Ni: Se threatens the multiplicity of interpretations open to Ni, which assumes that there are an infinite number of ways (rather than one RIGHT way) to view a situation, and assumes that every perspective is subjective, determined not by reality itself but by the VIEWER/SPEAKER. Se says there is only ONE reality -- and it's the hard, external data that is coming in. Perspectives do not exist, nor can frameworks be created. Reality is in the moment, and it is whatever the data stream is telling you, and consistent subjectives frameworks are to be discarded. (Which is why an SP can seem inconsistent in their theories of life, from one moment to the next).

    --

    Si: Ne threatens the solidity of Si's worldview, which has been constructed and is being used as a template of what the world is actually like. Ne looks at the Si world and says, "Not necessarily, and here's how we could change it." Si seeks to solidify and ANCHOR the world so that it does not NEED to change, whereas Ne is all about implementing change and making things better -- the past doesn't matter, the old ways do not matter, what matters is reaching the "next level."

    Ne: Si is like the Medusa's head, freezing possibilities ("turning them to stone") in the mind of anyone looking it in the face. Ne is no longer free to dream and imagine and see connections to things that have no yet been established, because Si has already determined that it's happy with reality the way it is and seeks to keep the status quo as-is. There is no need for Ne in that sort of environment.

    --

    So these are why each primary function also includes an inferior function -- the function that seeks to undermine and destroy its own influence. And it is why we usually fight against or run from our inferior, when we are still undergoing maturation!

    A mature person learns how to harness the power of the inferior function and uses it to complement the primary function rather than undermining it. (I haven't explained those "complimentary" powers here, haven't thought through them yet. Someone else can try their hand at it, if they are so inclined.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    A mature person learns how to harness the power of the inferior function and uses it to complement the primary function rather than undermining it. (I haven't explained those "complimentary" powers here, haven't thought through them yet. Someone else can try their hand at it, if they are so inclined.)
    That was awesome Jen, extremely enlightening and well put. I was sorta starting the whole explanation of using inferiors as complementary powers, to reconcile them with our dominants, in the OP, but I only had ENTP and INFJ worked out at the time lol

    At heart I'm a medieval scholastic, so to me there's no such thing as 'irreconcilable'. To me, any two things that appear conflicting can be shown to, in fact, not conflict, if you look at them hard enough. And sometimes the answer is so astoundingly simple.

    For example, just last week, we were arguing here about whether the Franciscan model of 'oneness' with nature, of integrating ourselves into the environment and being a part of it, was at odds with the Genesis idea of having 'dominion' over the environment. But after much debating, it suddenly became obvious that having dominion over things means you're in charge of them, and being in charge of things means you have to look after them and make them run right, co-exist with them simbiotically, like a good king and his subjects. It doesn't mean exploiting them for your own ends, 'til they're destroyed and depleted. So simple, we were kicking ourselves

    So by the same token, I'm sure if we put our minds to it, we can find ways to demonstrate that Ne/Si or Ti/Fe or Ni/Se aren't as opposite as our inner fears and insecurities lead us to believe.

    Dammit, if only I had more time to spend on this...!

    I shall be mulling it over, though... it's hard to mull things over without someone to mull it with, when you're an extravert, but when the people you want to do the mulling with are online and you can't talk to them in real time... gach!
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...after much debating, it suddenly became obvious that having dominion over things means you're in charge of them, and being in charge of things means you have to look after them and make them run right, co-exist with them simbiotically, like a good king and his subjects. It doesn't mean exploiting them for your own ends, 'til they're destroyed and depleted...
    So here is one for you, since you are a Christian: What does it now mean if you equate God and/or Jesus = King? Can you extend the metaphor out and clarify God's role in the world, based on Christian doctrine? (Sorry, this will be a very brief diversion! Or you could do it in a new thread in Religion.)

    I shall be mulling it over, though... it's hard to mull things over without someone to mull it with, when you're an extravert, but when the people you want to do the mulling with are online and you can't talk to them in real time... gach!
    Hmmm, you know, isn't this really just a matter of your integrating your extraversion with introversion in a symbiotic relationship rather than a contradictory one...? <muffled laugh>
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    A mature person learns how to harness the power of the inferior function and uses it to complement the primary function rather than undermining it. (I haven't explained those "complimentary" powers here, haven't thought through them yet. Someone else can try their hand at it, if they are so inclined.)
    Here's a possible example of using the inferior function to complement the dominant function. My wife and I are both INFPs, and thus we're both Dominant Fi and Inferior Te.

    Early in our relationship, we got into some really intractable arguments. My Fi was telling me that my opinion was an imperative and there was no backing down, and her Fi was telling her the same thing about her opinion. As our Fi became overwhelmed, we each became increasingly defensive and brought in our Te to fend off what we perceived as attacks. And of course that only made things worse.

    Getting stressed out and using Te didn't help. I would try to put Te in service to my basic Fi position. That is, I still considered my Fi opinion to be an imperative, and I simply used Te to come up with new devices to get my way: Negotiating, manipulating, bullying, etc. In a worst-case scenario, using Te in that role would lead me to give up on the relationship altogether by discounting the F value in the relationship and deciding that if I couldn't control the relationship then it wasn't worth keeping.

    But in the end, it helped that we were both Fi and we were simultaneously doing the same thing to each other. I could see that she was every bit as stuck in her opinion as I was in mine, and that we were just trying to manipulate or bully each other with Te. We were making absolutely no progress using competing Te to bring about change in support of competing Fi moral imperatives.

    Breakthroughs, of course, came when we quit using Te in support of limited Fi-based goals and used it instead to get an overview of the relationship as a whole. We could use Te to get past the impasse of trying to push temporary moral imperatives on each other and instead open up everything for negotiation and analyze how we could incorporate the conflict into the relationship rather than merely get our way.

    IOW, in a worst-case scenario, Fi gave us competing priorities (moral imperatives) and Te further put us at odds by only giving us clumsy and ill-conceived tools to try to achieve our Fi goals at the expense of the other person. In a best-case scenario, on the other hand, Fi was used to emphasize the value of the relationship as a whole, and Te was used to discount temporary moral imperatives and instead find ways to incorporate conflicts (sometimes without even bothering to resolve them) into the relationship and keep the relationship as a whole functioning unimpeded and healthy.

    At least, that's how it seems to me in retrospect.

    FL

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So here is one for you, since you are a Christian: What does it now mean if you equate God and/or Jesus = King? Can you extend the metaphor out and clarify God's role in the world, based on Christian doctrine? (Sorry, this will be a very brief diversion! Or you could do it in a new thread in Religion.)
    Off-hand, I'd say I'd have trouble getting what I make of this across to you, as we've already established that we're from very different Christian traditions, polar opposite almost, and I know I always avoid taking part in ecumenical work (except behind the scenes) exactly because of this minefield of easily misinterpreted specialist terms and usages that we don't even realise are specialist to us! And besides that, even just the question's based on a bunch of assumptions I don't share... so... yeh, maybe I'll do something in the religion forum someday, but I wouldn't bank on me getting time or having the inclination!

    Though for starters, my spider sense tells me that it's in the imminence, the 'Christ within you' concept, where this lies... that maybe it's not God/World/Us in separate categories, in a chain like that, or a triangle, but all are one; in communing with Christ we become one with him, in being one with him we're also one with everything else he's in, his creation (pantheism? oy! gotta thrash that out a bit), and it's our job to look after the world, guided by the Spirit within us, allowing it to work rather than fighting against it. (edit - in fact, God's looking after the world through us, or at least those of us who let him rather than thinking we know better and subduing the world to our will rather than submitting ourselves to his) Or something. Don't quote me, this was off the cuff within seconds of reading the question!!!

    Hmmm, you know, isn't this really just a matter of your integrating your extraversion with introversion in a symbiotic relationship rather than a contradictory one...? <muffled laugh>
    *clips Jennifer round the ear*

    Just cos I figured out what I gotta do, doesn't mean I know how to do it or have completed the process yet! :P
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Breakthroughs, of course, came when we quit using Te in support of limited Fi-based goals and used it instead to get an overview of the relationship as a whole. We could use Te to get past the impasse of trying to push temporary moral imperatives on each other and instead open up everything for negotiation and analyze how we could incorporate the conflict into the relationship rather than merely get our way. ...
    And this is genius, exactly what I was looking for!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #18
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    LOL No, I didn't mean that!! What Kate said as her examples of looking for evidence, was just thinking about your interaction with these people in the last however long, and just look at the facts of what was said and done, who's where and when, and seeing if you can still make of it what you've suspected, without the intangible, intuitive elements to make more of things than they really are.

    I'm not sure how this'd work in a romantic context, cos I know romantic love tends to just screw everything around and nobody seems to behave in quite the same way towards this relationship as they do in others because of the immense and almost unique intimacy they entail. But me and Kate weren't talking about those - we were talking about her social anxieties and her fears about making friends and stuff cos she thinks everyone hates her and is talking about her behind her back, or that nobody really likes her and she doesn't fit in and stuff.
    Ah, yeah, that's hard. I've decided I can't really trust my perceptions on that a whole lot and figure that I'm a reasonably decent person and a better than average friend, despite my not always making the best impression. If friendships are meant to be and people are worth being friends with, it will work out. If they can't get past my weirdness, then it's just too bad for them. I'm always going to have some background noise of doubt because that is just my nature. I think I combat it more with Fe and Ti than with Se.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    And this is genius, exactly what I was looking for!
    Yay! Thanks!

    Like I say, it's a lot easier for me to see this particular interaction between my wife and me because my wife and I are the same personality type. It's like looking in a mirror at times.

    The interactions in my first marriage (to an ISTJ) are a lot more opaque even in retrospect. It's tough to pull apart the interactions of completely different dominant and inferior functions. That's the problem with most interpersonal relationships. There are two different sets of shortcomings playing off each other simultaneously.

    FL

    [Edit:] By the way, I think this was a great idea for a thread. I've been interested in the workings of Inferior functions for a long time and am curious how others experience their Inferior. I thought the description in the OP was great and got a lot of good information on the Inferior Se/i from it. And I was intrigued by Jennifer's description of Inferior Fe.

  10. #20
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    I think the case is that not that the secondary function is not capable of dealing with what the first presents, yet rather the secondary is under control of the first.

    The Fe, by its own right could find support on the outside for the problems of the Ni, but does not because it follows the orders of the superior function.

    As for the ENTP. If you were to tell your Ne story to an INTP, they would be able to make sense of it, or at least show you whats wrong with your imaginary problems. The secondary Ti does not do this because it is ensalved by the Ne.

    Much like if an ENFJ visited the INFJ, the INFJ would have no problem getting those feelings to the outside, or at least have them validated whilst the secondary Fe would not be able to pull this off because it has been denied a voice of its own.


    I want to hear how an inferior Ti behaves as well as an inferior Ne.

    Jennifer's account of inferior Fe was excellent. You vascillate between completely shutting off your personal obligations, to putting forth an unhealthy amount of energy into meeting the F standards of others. If you chose the former, you probably wont be able to carry through with this, so you will go to root B. There you will be inadequate with how you deal with people because you're stuck in your head too far. And hence you go back to trying to isolate yourself...and off we go back again to trying to deal with people..

    The most congenial resolution to this would be finding some thorough-going F that would be patient with you for the time being..who somehow would give you confidence in your ability to handle people...that way you could move out to the bigger scene and if you are successful there..you will slowly begin to put more weight on the Ne and slowly regain your balance...

    Or another way...the one that I took would be to cultivate your Ne from within the inside...by forcing your mind to deal with the alogical...reading a lot of literature and observing arts should do the trick nearly every time..you'd automatically become more comfortable when dealing with people after that...

    The first way isnt very reliable because you probably wont be understood at the time since you're stuck into thinking so much and you need F to make yourself available on the emotional level...most will not be able to help you there...with an exception of certain INFPs...but that will be an extremely tedious and painful endeavor and you will run an exceedingly high risk of making an emotional attachment which may force you to reject the relationship altogether later on...

    So the most healthy way is the second and better fitting to an INTP as we value autonomy and persevering through our internal ventures only on our own...
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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