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  1. #1
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Default Calling people who understand the functions well.

    I have a basic formula of how to type people via text, but I'm rather hopeless at using it myself. The problem is that I'm poor at identifying which particular function is being used.

    My method is essentially: identify which cognitive function the first piece of the text represents, then which the second represents, and so on, until a cognitive function order manifests (a minimum of 2 CFs must be displayed).

    So what I need help with is this:

    How can I tell, by reading a specific sentence, which cognitive function it represents?

    If anyone knows how to do this, or at least has insight on it, even if it's only insight relevant to a particular function, that would be much appreciated.

    My main approach so far is to try and identify if the sentence is: subjectively or objectively oriented, perception based or judgement based, and then which of N/S or F/T it fits best with from there.

    However, I have trouble with, say, identifying whether a sentence is subjective or objective. So that's a first thing people could help me with.

    Thanks
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  2. #2
    Senior Member HisKittyKat's Avatar
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    Lets play a game, tell me what sentence is subjective and which is objective.

    Most men prefer women who are Intelligent and have a University degree before marriage.

    If you lay in the sun too long your skin will burn, it isn't healthy because it might cause cancer.

    I'm not an expert by all means, however when I read a sentence that is personally driven I can pin point the subjectivity behind it. All introverted functions are subjective, so the closer Ti, Fi, Si or Ni is to the leading function, the more you will notice a subjective flare behind how people think/feel.

    I should probably mention that having subjective thinking/feeling is not a bad thing, think of it more as an Independent thing. As a subjective feeler myself I don't see my emotions as something wrong, bad or not acceptable. I see them as Independent of how others are feeling. To me it makes sense to have Independent thoughts and feelings, I don't believe we are designed to be an extension of other people. Keep in mind we have objective functions to balance out our subjective ones. I often read and hear that bc I lead with Fi this automatically means my emotions are Irrational, so untrue. Because I form my decisions based on how I personally feel about it says nothing about whether or not it is rational or not. We don't have to always have a group of people feeling the same way in order for it to make sense, make it real or true. Subjectivity is personal truth over group think. Objectivity is social norms over Individual thoughts and emotions. We all process using both, figuring out if you use subjective thinking or feeling and visa versa could be your first move.

    Personally I can't type a person online unless I have seen them in many different moods. When people argue for example you get a really good feel for how they behave, what they say and how they say it. There is no way to type a person by one mood alone, you need to see them in a variety of moods and circumstances because this is when leading functions surface loud and clear. Basically our true colors come out when we are challenged.

  3. #3
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I would say the first important thing is to have enough context to make the determination. A single sentence of text can be misleading. It is a bit like saying, what is the answer to 4x=

    I remember a conversation online with @Enthusiastic_Dreamer that clarified something for me. He said something to the effect of not determining function based solely on behaviors because they can be motivated by a variety of inner perspectives.

    It is also important to remember that type theory is much cleaner, neater, and consistent than actual human beings. A Ti-dom can have an irrational outburst, but in the bigger context it would be more rare than for another type. The bigger your context of information on a person, the more accurate your typing will be which leads to another important point.

    It is important to remain continually open to revision about our perception of a person's type because it is possible to develop a distorted perspective based on confirmation bias. For example, we can read emotional expression into the text of someone we identify as a Feeler, or we can read an absence of it if we assume a Thinker. Those assumptions can be incorrect and the result more of our own bias than what is actually being expressed.

    It is a subjective system which means the edges of the definitions and how they apply to people are fluid and inexact.
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  4. #4
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    I would say the first important thing is to have enough context to make the determination. A single sentence of text can be misleading. It is a bit like saying, what is the answer to 4x=

    I remember a conversation online with @Enthusiastic_Dreamer that clarified something for me. He said something to the effect of not determining function based solely on behaviors because they can be motivated by a variety of inner perspectives.

    It is also important to remember that type theory is much cleaner, neater, and consistent than actual human beings. A Ti-dom can have an irrational outburst, but in the bigger context it would be more rare than for another type. The bigger your context of information on a person, the more accurate your typing will be which leads to another important point.

    It is important to remain continually open to revision about our perception of a person's type because it is possible to develop a distorted perspective based on confirmation bias. For example, we can read emotional expression into the text of someone we identify as a Feeler, or we can read an absence of it if we assume a Thinker. Those assumptions can be incorrect and the result more of our own bias than what is actually being expressed.

    It is a subjective system which means the edges of the definitions and how they apply to people are fluid and inexact.
    I think you've hit on some great points labyrinthine. This actually brings to mind the recent thread on...typism? Was that the word used? Anyways, I won't deny there isn't potentially some at play, but my thoughts on that (I probably should post this in THAT thread) aligns with what you mentioned above, and that is, if we come from a negative place, where you feel personally victimized or beaten down by others, either real or perceived, then that is what you will find time and time again. Whereas, that is not something I actively look for and therefore I personally don't come across it, conveniently. Even if I do come across comments my way that sure, I can see how someone else may take offense, it doesn't bother me because that's not my priority of focus, that's not my personal insecurity. I have my own weak points which means certain things in my environment will stand out to me more than they would to others. What one may find as a collection of objective facts to back up their perceptions, may not be all that objective, really.
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt
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  5. #5
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I have a basic formula of how to type people via text, but I'm rather hopeless at using it myself. The problem is that I'm poor at identifying which particular function is being used.

    My method is essentially: identify which cognitive function the first piece of the text represents, then which the second represents, and so on, until a cognitive function order manifests (a minimum of 2 CFs must be displayed).

    So what I need help with is this:

    How can I tell, by reading a specific sentence, which cognitive function it represents?

    If anyone knows how to do this, or at least has insight on it, even if it's only insight relevant to a particular function, that would be much appreciated.

    My main approach so far is to try and identify if the sentence is: subjectively or objectively oriented, perception based or judgement based, and then which of N/S or F/T it fits best with from there.

    However, I have trouble with, say, identifying whether a sentence is subjective or objective. So that's a first thing people could help me with.

    Thanks
    Ya, trying to pick out functions from one sentence or even two is supremely difficult, if accuracy is your aim. Usually as I'm speaking with someone certain things I'll pick up on, will at least steer me one direction or another, but an important thing to note in this process, is that I'm also constantly reevaluating that person's typing in my head as our conversation develops. It can seem like wasted energy to some, but rather than a process that builds and builds towards a typing, I essentially refresh my knowledge of them every so often in conversation (when those signifiers pop up) and I will very nearly start from 0. Only once the conversation is over, I will then compile this information, of all these internal tests I've conducted, and come to a loose definition for them. Even at that point though, I hardly ever feel so determined in someone's typing that I can't change my perception of it. To visualize my approach, say I want to test some water in a nearby lake to see if it's potable. I will take hundreds of small, styrofoam cup-sized samples all over the lake, then see what results I get, rather than taking one or two oil can-sized test samples from maybe 1 or 2 parts of the lake.

    I'll try to think on this though and come back to you Legion, what those identifiers are when they perk my ears up in conversation. I never make mental notes of them but some things just catch my attention relating to the functions, or Enneagram as well, though, I'm less familiar with that typing system. Learning though! @labyrinthine already mentioned similar points, in fact, my thoughts most likely spawned off from hers, thank you!

  6. #6
    brush off the lolcows asynartetic's Avatar
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    I'm afraid that while I think I've developed a decent theoretical understanding, I'm not great at recognizing their actual use in people.

  7. #7
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    One comment is that I wouldn't ask which function is there -- it seems to me a better perspective to say that all functions offer one focus/on one aspect of reality, and that in reality there's always some of each implicit. but some given a more relative/others more absolute significance

    A common thing is to say that science is mostly independent of value judgments/F, but that's just not so, as the more sophisticated will point out, the entire enterprise could be framed in terms of certain values being presumed from the outset.
    Still, many traditional scientific endeavors fit in a (functions-wise, not dichotomies-wise) sensation-and-thinking region, but there's always some speculation (perhaps part of this is evident in that the interpretation of a scientific theory, vs its experimental content, is always up for grabs to some extent....sometimes more shockingly than usual, because in the Newtonian-mechanics times, pre-quantum, the results of science were inferred to mean things are deterministic, and that went out the window -- even if the experiments involving purely classical phenomena still behave deterministically/the math works still, the interpretation/range/scope was revised).

  8. #8
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HisKittyKat View Post
    Lets play a game, tell me what sentence is subjective and which is objective.

    Most men prefer women who are Intelligent and have a University degree before marriage.

    If you lay in the sun too long your skin will burn, it isn't healthy because it might cause cancer.
    Both of those sentences sound primarily objective in nature to me, but the term "prefer" is a subjective word, and I believe "healthy" is as well.

    I'm not an expert by all means, however when I read a sentence that is personally driven I can pin point the subjectivity behind it. All introverted functions are subjective, so the closer Ti, Fi, Si or Ni is to the leading function, the more you will notice a subjective flare behind how people think/feel.

    I should probably mention that having subjective thinking/feeling is not a bad thing, think of it more as an Independent thing. As a subjective feeler myself I don't see my emotions as something wrong, bad or not acceptable. I see them as Independent of how others are feeling. To me it makes sense to have Independent thoughts and feelings, I don't believe we are designed to be an extension of other people. Keep in mind we have objective functions to balance out our subjective ones. I often read and hear that bc I lead with Fi this automatically means my emotions are Irrational, so untrue. Because I form my decisions based on how I personally feel about it says nothing about whether or not it is rational or not. We don't have to always have a group of people feeling the same way in order for it to make sense, make it real or true. Subjectivity is personal truth over group think. Objectivity is social norms over Individual thoughts and emotions. We all process using both, figuring out if you use subjective thinking or feeling and visa versa could be your first move.

    Personally I can't type a person online unless I have seen them in many different moods. When people argue for example you get a really good feel for how they behave, what they say and how they say it. There is no way to type a person by one mood alone, you need to see them in a variety of moods and circumstances because this is when leading functions surface loud and clear. Basically our true colors come out when we are challenged.
    And I thought I would continue the game... expert (maybe?), personally driven, notice, subjective flare, should, bad thing, independent thing, wrong, bad, acceptable, makes sense, believe, other people, keep in mind, balance out, often, irrational, personally feel, have to, personal, figuring out, seen, moods, argue, really good feel, how they say it, need to, loud and clear, true colours

    Those are all the subjective terms I picked out. Most of them are values based, with a few like "makes sense", "keep in mind", "loud and clear" which sound more sensation based.

    How'd I do? :P I like this game. This is the sort of thing I was looking for, thanks.

  9. #9
    Senior Member HisKittyKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Both of those sentences sound primarily objective in nature to me, but the term "prefer" is a subjective word, and I believe "healthy" is as well.

    Interesting how our perceptions are different with how we see these sentences. The first one is subjective in nature, however the word prefer wasn't written with subjectivity in mind, I would agree this word is subjective. I was looking at the sentence as a whole, the vibe and how each word is strung together. For example when we stress words like Always , that alone is setting the tone for subjective thinking.

    So lets remove the word prefer and add want/need/love/hate.....it doesn't matter what word is used in this part of the sentence because the words " Men Always " has already sealed the deal that this line of thinking is very personal to the person stating it. Subjective is speaking for all. Like subjective feeling, there is subjective thinking, neither one is more right than the other, we have those who process using Independent feeling, and those who process using Independent thinking. Because thinking is associated with logic those who use Ti believe that their thinking is always logical, however if Fi is seen as an Illogical based on the subjectivity behind it, and bc all introverted functions are subjective, we also have to say Ti is also coming from a Illogical place bc it is also subjective <<<<.....but I am not here to tell you that subjective is either wrong or right, it is a thought or feeling in mind that is personal and isn't a reflection of how everyone thinks or feels about X topic/Idea etc.

    Now lets talk about the word healthy in the context I used it in. It can be proven getting too much sun can and does cause cancer, so in that particular sentence the word healthy isn't subjective.

    You saw them both as objective in nature, however I saw the first one Immed as subjective even without the word prefer. It's interesting to note that bc you and I didn't see the first sentence as subjective in nature, this is how we differ in our world view. And it can also lead to miscommunication bc we both saw it differently. Now Image how many other sentences we could both view differently. When people are not on the same page communication begins to break down. I thought I would note this and point it out bc miscommunication over expression is the biggest complaint between 2 people when corresponding.


    And I thought I would continue the game... expert (maybe?), personally driven, notice, subjective flare, should, bad thing, independent thing, wrong, bad, acceptable, makes sense, believe, other people, keep in mind, balance out, often, irrational, personally feel, have to, personal, figuring out, seen, moods, argue, really good feel, how they say it, need to, loud and clear, true colours

    Those are all the subjective terms I picked out. Most of them are values based, with a few like "makes sense", "keep in mind", "loud and clear" which sound more sensation based.


    Yes they all can be seen Independently as subjective in nature however you have to consider when used in the right content/context they can be seen and considered as objective.

    How'd I do? :P I like this game. This is the sort of thing I was looking for, thanks.
    You did well overall, I'll give you a C+ lol

  10. #10
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HisKittyKat View Post
    You did well overall, I'll give you a C+ lol
    Only a C+? Aww!

    I've done another one for my post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I have a basic formula of how to type people via text, but I'm rather hopeless at using it myself. The problem is that I'm poor at identifying which particular function is being used.

    My method is essentially: identify which cognitive function the first piece of the text represents, then which the second represents, and so on, until a cognitive function order manifests (a minimum of 2 CFs must be displayed).

    So what I need help with is this:

    How can I tell, by reading a specific sentence, which cognitive function it represents?

    If anyone knows how to do this, or at least has insight on it, even if it's only insight relevant to a particular function, that would be much appreciated.

    My main approach so far is to try and identify if the sentence is: subjectively or objectively oriented, perception based or judgement based, and then which of N/S or F/T it fits best with from there.

    However, I have trouble with, say, identifying whether a sentence is subjective or objective. So that's a first thing people could help me with.

    Thanks
    Basic, hopeless, poor, essentially, identify, represents, manifests, tell, knows, insight, relevant, appreciated, main, try, fits best, trouble,

    I get the feeling that appreciated is an objective term since I'm an Fe user. Clearly a very different set of subjectivities to yours - Ni+Ti vs Fi+Si.

    This method is very different from what I originally had in mind and seems much easier to use. Quite effective.

    I notice that my initial subjective terms were Ti based, but in a more negative sense, as if to say "my Ti is lacking".

    --

    As for the example sentence that we were seeing differently: to me it sounds like a scientific sort of statement that the person is making. It could have been the conclusion of a survey-based study analysing the preferences of men, so me it is an attempt to be objective.

    I think we have different understandings of the terms subjective and objective. Like, objective doesn't necessarily mean true, it's just about whether the term is dependent on a conscious subject or not. For example the term "basic" is being used subjectively, because: basic to whom? And in your post, I saw "other people" as subjective because: other implies that it is relative to the person using the term.

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