• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Jungian Cognitive Functions] 4 Dichotomies, with Functions but no stacks?

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
On my learning curve for piecing together all of Enneagram, MBTI and JCF etc, I've been reading some old posts by reckful, Garrotthethief, and others, which are all very convincing (eg. the 'thanked' threads on my profile - http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/16965.html ). A lot of very learned people seem to disreard the function stacks when assessing MBTI, giving very good reasons for it, and prefer the 4 dichotomies on their own. But Jung's original theories concerned functions, and they do seem to categorise everyday behaviour very well. But they do so in much more complex ways than a simple stack. People are using all 8 functions in all sorts of combinations.

So, how do we make sense of this?

Eg. Can we group together Fi/Fe and say that strongly F-people use both, to the general exclusion of Ti/Te? Can we say that INTJ is similar to INTP after all? Can we say that only the most strongly, one-dimensional J would rely heavily on T or F, rather than S or N; and that most people combine them?

Are there other, better theories?
 

reckful

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
656
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
I appreciate the shout-out, and just wanted to note that this post is the latest version of my introduction to what I call the Real MBTI Model, and it supersedes those two linked posts on your profile.
 

GavinElster

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
234
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Jung's theory is in a way both a functions theory and a dichotomies theory -- there's not a huge distinction, somehow there.

Your type could be seen as a sum of rational vs irrational, introvert vs extravert, intuition vs sensation, and thinking vs feeling.

Yes, Jung thought thinking in the introverted attitude looks different from thinking in the extraverted attitude, for instance. However, the same idea is already covered in the dichotomies: there are some things especially typical of, say, IT types vs ET types, TJ types vs TP types, and so on.
In other words, some personality traits are especially typical of the combinations of certain dichotomies.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
You can look at it like that (attitudes collapsed into dichotomies), if you realize that the different attitudes are differentiated from each other by different complexes. I/E and J/P then tells you which attitudes are associated with the Hero and Parent complexes (corresponding to the dominant and auxiliary).
 

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
First: I should have "mentioned" you guys (sorry about that) - [MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION], [MENTION=23213]GarrotTheThief[/MENTION] .

Second, during the last day, I happened across the "INSIGHTS" system, which uses the 8 functions and forms a new type for every possible combination of them. For instance, Fi Fe is a type, and so is Ne Se ! It seems to embody both MBTI types and Jung's Archetypes. I am not sure what to make of it, yet.

Their website - https://www.insights.com/products/insights-discovery/

Their Patent applciation (2011) - Patent US20130029301 - Profiling Method - Google Patents

Diagrams of the types - https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/45/fa/df/45fadfc47324bc11a5b4f9b14d1e7ab6.jpg
- - - and https://andybritnell.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/8-type-wheel.jpg

(I have no connection with them, and have only just discovered it)
 
Last edited:

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
You can look at it like that (attitudes collapsed into dichotomies), if you realize that the different attitudes are differentiated from each other by different complexes. I/E and J/P then tells you which attitudes are associated with the Hero and Parent complexes (corresponding to the dominant and auxiliary).

I understand that. Been learning MBTI for many years now, but also seeing flaws in it. If you read some of those links, you will discover that the classical function stacks (ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si etc) have almost no substantiating research, whereas the "4 dichotomies" XXXX has a huge amount. The functions themselves are very helpful in explaining behaviour, but the stacks are not.
 

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I appreciate the shout-out, and just wanted to note that this post is the latest version of my introduction to what I call the Real MBTI Model, and it supersedes those two linked posts on your profile.

I understand that in your view functions don't really exist (in the normal sense). That is, NP, FN, etc, explain different traits, and that displaces the idea of functions.

But in your previous debate with GarrotThethief, his main idea was that all of the functions act very quickly in complex combinations, eg. Ne Fi Ti Te etc in every small action and choice. That seems to be a different and unusual take on the subject. Normally the functions are said to be mutually exclusive and much simpler, so if you are using Fi you can't be using Ti, and someone would say "Ne Ti" and leave it there. His explanation makes more sense to me. What do you think about that?
 

reckful

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
656
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
I understand that in your view functions don't really exist (in the normal sense). That is, NP, FN, etc, explain different traits, and that displaces the idea of functions.

But in your previous debate with GarrotThethief, his main idea was that all of the functions act very quickly in complex combinations, eg. Ne Fi Ti Te etc in every small action and choice. That seems to be a different and unusual take on the subject. Normally the functions are said to be mutually exclusive and much simpler, so if you are using Fi you can't be using Ti, and someone would say "Ne Ti" and leave it there. His explanation makes more sense to me. What do you think about that?

Personality typology is about how X types characteristically (as a matter of tendencies and probabilities) differ from Y types in personality-related ways.

Can you give me a couple examples of something about how X types characteristically differ from Y types that you think is covered or explained by Garrot's (or anyone's) function-based theory but somehow goes beyond, or is missing from, what I call the Real MBTI Model?
 

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Personality typology is about how X types characteristically (as a matter of tendencies and probabilities) differ from Y types in personality-related ways.

Can you give me a couple examples of something about how X types characteristically differ from Y types that you think is covered or explained by Garrot's (or anyone's) function-based theory but somehow goes beyond, or is missing from, what I call the Real MBTI Model?

If the functions work as Garrot suggests - at a micro level, in complex combinations, they would likely be given varying priority. Eg an F may use F and T during a thought process, but put more weight on F for the conclusion, in most situations. It could be a butterfly effect leading to macro scale traits, which explains the dichotomies.

Bear in mind that most tests will ask a range of questions in different situations, so that an F may answer for F or T, but on balance weigh in favour of F.

There may also be a telling order of sequence, eg. some people use Fi before Ti and rely more on Ti, or vice versa.

There may also be functions we aren't seeing - so there are more than 8.

Example: Someone has strong Ti for politics and strong Fi/Fe in conversation. In a campaign they may privately work out the best course of action (using all functions, but weighing more on T). But when talking to voters, they may be swayed by what the person says too much, forgetting their logical reasons and kick themselves later. The precise order of functions during a conversation would use Ti and F, but the conclusions of Ti would keep getting overridden by F traits, causing them to appear very agreeable. They may say things to people, and then change their mind in private.
 

reckful

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
656
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
If the functions work as Garrot suggests - at a micro level, in complex combinations, they would likely be given varying priority. Eg an F may use F and T during a thought process, but put more weight on F for the conclusion, in most situations. It could be a butterfly effect leading to macro scale traits, which explains the dichotomies.

Bear in mind that most tests will ask a range of questions in different situations, so that an F may answer for F or T, but on balance weigh in favour of F.

There may also be a telling order of sequence, eg. some people use Fi before Ti and rely more on Ti, or vice versa.

There may also be functions we aren't seeing - so there are more than 8.

Example: Someone has strong Ti for politics and strong Fi/Fe in conversation. In a campaign they may privately work out the best course of action (using all functions, but weighing more on T). But when talking to voters, they may be swayed by what the person says too much, forgetting their logical reasons and kick themselves later. The precise order of functions during a conversation would use Ti and F, but the conclusions of Ti would keep getting overridden by F traits, causing them to appear very agreeable. They may say things to people, and then change their mind in private.

But again, it doesn't seem to me that you're talking about personality types if what you're saying doesn't go beyond the idea that you've put together a list of what purport to be some mental functions that go on in people's brains, and any particular individual might tend to favor one or more of them for any particular thing and/or at any particular time.

Can you give me an example that's along the lines of (1) people of X type and Y type have a shared tendency to exhibit some personality characteristic (including a shared tendency to use a particular kind of mental function, if you wish) that other types (or some of the other types) don't, and (2) that's a type grouping that either (A) crosscuts the dichotomies (e.g., that says that INFPs and ESTJs have things in common that INFPs don't share with INFJs, and/or that ESTJs don't share with ESTPs), or (B) is somehow otherwise inconsistent (or goes beyond) what can be explained/encompassed by the Real MBTI Model framing?

Or in other words, if the actual correspondences of type to aspects of personality — and I'm using "aspects of personality" uber-broadly, to include, for example, tendencies to favor certain "micro-level functions" (as you say Garrot suggests) — that Garrot's function theory describes just ends up lining up with the Real MBTI Model categories, then what I'd say is that if Garrot wants to speculate about some kind of deeper-level, underlying, micro-level, neuroscientific reasons why NJs (for example) tend to exhibit a certain aspect of personality, then he's free to do that, buuuut (1) I don't see how he's doing anything that isn't appropriately described as fanciful speculation at this point, and (2) I'd say most type aficionados (like me, for example) are interested in what NJs are like (from a descriptive standpoint), but not so much in underlying "micro level" explanations that don't add to what's in the description.

So again, from a different angle, what I'm asking is if you can give me a couple examples of how X types and Y types are characteristically similar in some personality-related way, where using Garrot's approach leads to the inclusion of aspects of personality in the description of those types that are inconsistent with (or go beyond) what a Real MBTI Model description can encompass.

Here's an example that may help you understand what I'm asking for. If Garrot was a HaroldGrantian (and I don't know if he is or not), I would certainly acknowledge that there are aspects of the Harold Grant function framing (INFP=Fi-Ne-Si-Te) that go beyond, and are inconsistent with, the Real MBTI Model. The Harold Grant framing says that INFPs have MBTI personality-related things in common that they share with ESTJs and don't share with ENFJs, because when it comes to S-related stuff, INFPs and ESTJs tend to favor Si over Se, while ENFJs tend to favor Se over Si. The Real MBTI Model, on the other hand, says that INFPs and ESTJs have no MBTI personality-related things in common, because they're opposites on all four dimensions, and therefore also opposites on every preference combination.

So the problem with the Harold Grant framing isn't that it doesn't potentially add stuff (when it comes to complete descriptions of what X type and Y type have in common) that the Real MBTI Model misses. The problem is that the stuff it adds has no validity — i.e., it doesn't line up with the real world. There is no respectable body of MBTI data pools whose correlational patterns demonstrate that INFPs have anything in common with ESTJs.

But what I'm asking you is if, when it comes to what you understand Garrot's framing to be, we even get to the validity question. What I'm asking you is whether the Garrot framing adds anything to the Real MBTI Model in the way that the Harold Grant function stack adds the supposed "tertiary Si" of INFPs. And when I say "adds," I mean "adds" in the sense of potentially adding to the model at the level of type descriptions and type groupings — like the Harold Grant stack would do, if only it were valid.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I understand that. Been learning MBTI for many years now, but also seeing flaws in it. If you read some of those links, you will discover that the classical function stacks (ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si etc) have almost no substantiating research, whereas the "4 dichotomies" XXXX has a huge amount. The functions themselves are very helpful in explaining behaviour, but the stacks are not.
Wonder if that's based on Singer-Loomis (which supposedly just stacks functions randomly, I imagine according to "strength"). But I don't see how strength is better at explaining behavior. That is what I have seen (like on these bards, when discussing "cognitive process test" results) creates a lot of confusion, and makes it hard for people to find a type. There are many reasons why one function or another might seem "stronger", and that, changing at different times.
People assume any stack is based on "strength", and the first three or four usually will have an order of relative strength, but I've been saying that what really creates the stack, and the levels or types of consciousness, is the associated complexes.

If the functions work as Garrot suggests - at a micro level, in complex combinations, they would likely be given varying priority. Eg an F may use F and T during a thought process, but put more weight on F for the conclusion, in most situations. It could be a butterfly effect leading to macro scale traits, which explains the dichotomies.

Bear in mind that most tests will ask a range of questions in different situations, so that an F may answer for F or T, but on balance weigh in favour of F.

There may also be a telling order of sequence, eg. some people use Fi before Ti and rely more on Ti, or vice versa.

There may also be functions we aren't seeing - so there are more than 8.

Example: Someone has strong Ti for politics and strong Fi/Fe in conversation. In a campaign they may privately work out the best course of action (using all functions, but weighing more on T). But when talking to voters, they may be swayed by what the person says too much, forgetting their logical reasons and kick themselves later. The precise order of functions during a conversation would use Ti and F, but the conclusions of Ti would keep getting overridden by F traits, causing them to appear very agreeable. They may say things to people, and then change their mind in private.
What you're describing here would be explained by the complexes. A complex is a lesser sense of "I" under the ego (the main sense of "I"; this paper Zimberoff_Hartman | Id explains how this works from scratch; you have to be registered with Scribd, though there could be other free copies somewhere). So I, when in "Hero" (dominant ego defense) mode, I'll use Ti in politics, but then in conversation, be in an Fe mode that may tie into the associated complex, of inferiority. That doesn't mean I'll always be feeling inferior when talking to others, but when making a decision based on the environment (e) of people (F; that's what Fe is about), I won't be nearly as confident as when arguing politics. If it's a really negative situation, or something triggering a really negative memory, then the inferior will degrade into an even more negative complex that fears the destruction of the ego's integrity, and tries to compensate with narcissism and this will then associate with Fi.

If this happens a lot, then those functions may seem "stronger" than usual, but it's really not about relative strength. So those tests that just stack randomly according to strength (or just using dichotomies only) are not going to tell you the contexts of the function "uses" (or dichotomy "traits"), which are the complexes. Whatever this "research" on dichotomies is, may give some useful information, but it can go deeper than that if the researchers give it a chance and not just limit themselves to whatever they've already adopted. (Which BTW, is a Te approach, that is one sided when not allowing for a more "open" or "variable" Ti perspective).
 

GavinElster

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
234
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
BardsandWarriors said:
Eg an F may use F and T during a thought process, but put more weight on F for the conclusion, in most situations. It could be a butterfly effect leading to macro scale traits, which explains the dichotomies.

Two remarks:

(1) First, my understanding is reckful proposes a dimensional theory, not a dichotomies theory in reality, which means he is actually saying there are varying degrees of tendencies in the (say) F or T directions, not just looking at the final average answer of "you're either F or T -- or just in between -- overall".
This already covers the idea that someone contemplates the F direction and T direction and places more weight on one, viewing the dichotomies "type" as an overall average of the competing tendencies.

(2) In a way, actually I think you should think the dimensional theories are most properly basic, and the functions types are explained by various combinations of dichotomies/dimensions.
Usually functions-types implement extremely particular assumptions, like this person uses Ne and Ti, or that uses Ni and Fe, and it's much more basic to say "here are X number of dimensions defined by contrasts between two opposing concepts -- now combine them in as many ways as you like!" A certain subset of those combinations will yield the functions types you love.


At best, I think the specific dichotomies covered in the MBTI likely do not cover the full spectrum of conceptual content found in every functions theory, but even those theories probably can be viewed in terms of combinations of various other dichotomies ultimately. Probably the only thing in a Jungian theory which doesn't fit in a dichotomous structure is the idea of an auxiliary pairing with dominant.

If you think about it, even "Fi-Te" VERSUS "Fe-Ti" is possible to formulate as a type of dichotomy, and assuming you were a fan of say, this type of page Determining Function Axes, Part 1 | CelebrityTypes
you'd notice they basically spell out what they think that means.


It seems to me even if you view type in terms of functions and things like judging combining with perceiving, a lot of the conceptually juicy stuff is framed in terms of overall differences between two opposing sides -- and whether that's Ne-Si vs Ni-Se or NiTe vs NeTi or just the traditional N-S dichotomy, they're all some sort of dichotomy/opposition, or at least view-able as such in an appropriate sense.

Of course, one can then say some dichotomies (like Ne-Si vs Ni-Se) stem more from conceptual aesthetic, less from data (like Limbic vs Calm of the Big 5), and can also decide on which to focus on. But the point is even if you're less data oriented, dimensions/dichotomies are far from an impoverished framework.

A sort of analogy to this is, while quantum mechanics may not obey the same intuitions as classical mechanics, we nonetheless don't necessarily all abandon classical logic as a way of analyzing quantum mechanics, in favor of some kind of quantum logic. We just make various qualifying statements on what kinds of questions you are allowed to ask in the quantum framework, while still expressing them in the standard logical language.
Similarly, even for someone interested in the subtleties of a functions framework, I think it might be instructive to think in terms of various dichotomies, just perhaps place a few limitations on how those dichotomies can and cannot combine to make meaningful sentences about said functions framework.
 

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Yes, Jung thought thinking in the introverted attitude looks different from thinking in the extraverted attitude, for instance. However, the same idea is already covered in the dichotomies: there are some things especially typical of, say, IT types vs ET types

That suggests a person is either IT or ET. Does that describe the world, or is there more complexity at work? Eg. for 10 behaviours in different situations, they may have 4 Is and 4 Es in common, with only 2 situations going either way. Or they might have nothing in common, with opposing behaviours everywhere, leading to the same average.

It also suggests an INTP has mainly IN and IT, which I assume do not equate to Ni and Ti -?
 

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Two remarks:

(1) First, my understanding is reckful proposes a dimensional theory, not a dichotomies theory in reality, which means he is actually saying there are varying degrees of tendencies in the (say) F or T directions, not just looking at the final average answer of "you're either F or T -- or just in between -- overall".
This already covers the idea that someone contemplates the F direction and T direction and places more weight on one, viewing the dichotomies "type" as an overall average of the competing tendencies.

Yes it does. But... what if those Fs and Ts only pop up in specific ways, in specific situations? When you aggregate them, you are losing the real mechanisms at work.

Are we agreed that even if functions exist, 8-point function stacks are completely unrealistic? (Because 1. they don't explain the world - there are more exceptions to the rule than adherents to it, and 2. Why?). So we are discussing 2 ideas: dom-aux vs XXXX ?

...
Usually functions-types implement extremely particular assumptions, like this person uses Ne and Ti, or that uses Ni and Fe, and it's much more basic to say "here are X number of dimensions defined by contrasts between two opposing concepts -- now combine them in as many ways as you like!" A certain subset of those combinations will yield the functions types you love.

- I don't love them that much. I am trying to get to the bottom of life, the universe and everything. A quest like that precludes excessive love for a questionable idea. Especially when, in our world, the dogmatic love of an idea is usually proportional to its questionability.

And to answer your question, - firstly, see my reply above this one. Secondly, why not combine the functions in any way you like? Eg. Ne-Ni - what would that look like?


At best, I think the specific dichotomies covered in the MBTI likely do not cover the full spectrum of conceptual content found in every functions theory, but even those theories probably can be viewed in terms of combinations of various other dichotomies ultimately. Probably the only thing in a Jungian theory which doesn't fit in a dichotomous structure is the idea of an auxiliary pairing with dominant.

Can you explain (in a very small nutshell) these other functions theories?

I am not certain about dom-aux either, for the reasons given in my other reply. Dom-aux is a huge simplification, like P-J dichotomies - which only applies some of the time, to some of the people.

But there are processes at work here, which can be used to describe all of the time, all of the people.

If you think about it, even "Fi-Te" VERSUS "Fe-Ti" is possible to formulate as a type of dichotomy, and assuming you were a fan of say, this type of page Determining Function Axes, Part 1 | CelebrityTypes
you'd notice they basically spell out what they think that means.

Noted to read later.

It seems to me even if you view type in terms of functions and things like judging combining with perceiving, a lot of the conceptually juicy stuff is framed in terms of overall differences between two opposing sides -- and whether that's Ne-Si vs Ni-Se or NiTe vs NeTi or just the traditional N-S dichotomy, they're all some sort of dichotomy/opposition, or at least view-able as such in an appropriate sense.

Yes, they are interesting when they oppose. But can they also be similar, eg. what would Ne-Ni look like in practice? I am certain it exists. Or, what would it look like in dichotomies?

Of course, one can then say some dichotomies (like Ne-Si vs Ni-Se) stem more from conceptual aesthetic, less from data (like Limbic vs Calm of the Big 5), and can also decide on which to focus on. But the point is even if you're less data oriented, dimensions/dichotomies are far from an impoverished framework.

I like them very much. But why not both, and a better way of assimilating them, that better describes the world? My main point in this thread is anti-stacks; and by extension, a debate on those J-P, E-I, dom-aux pairs.

A sort of analogy to this is, while quantum mechanics may not obey the same intuitions as classical mechanics, we nonetheless don't necessarily all abandon classical logic as a way of analyzing quantum mechanics, in favor of some kind of quantum logic. We just make various qualifying statements on what kinds of questions you are allowed to ask in the quantum framework, while still expressing them in the standard logical language.
Similarly, even for someone interested in the subtleties of a functions framework, I think it might be instructive to think in terms of various dichotomies, just perhaps place a few limitations on how those dichotomies can and cannot combine to make meaningful sentences about said functions framework.

I'm not keen on QM either, but lol. I think QM is a black box theory describing very predictable events which we can't see. Like when politicians quote statistics. So you can see my angle of approach here.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
If you think about it, even "Fi-Te" VERSUS "Fe-Ti" is possible to formulate as a type of dichotomy, and assuming you were a fan of say, this type of page Determining Function Axes, Part 1 | CelebrityTypes
you'd notice they basically spell out what they think that means.
That's basically what the Berens/Montoya camp has dubbed (at least tentatively) "Ordering" vs "Aligning", as names to what amounts to the functional "dichotomy".
 

GavinElster

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
234
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Bardsandwarriors said:
But... what if those Fs and Ts only pop up in specific ways, in specific situations? When you aggregate them, you are losing the real mechanisms at work.

Well, there is plenty of data on the dichotomies types -- that data will tell you the more specific tendencies of F types, including how they relate to logic and feelings, and in what situations. Stating an average does not imply you forget what tendencies contribute to falling on one or the other side -- rather, the way you determine that someone is on average an F involves considering those subtleties -- far from just treating them as 100% F 0% T or any such thing.

In general, I find attempts to say F and T tendencies show up only in so and so very particular ways are wildly speculative and you can easily find counterexamples, hence why I think just saying OK, there's such a thing as an overall F preference, overall T, and there are many different ways those preferences can show up specifically avoids all the offenses you might want.

Can you explain (in a very small nutshell) these other functions theories?

Well they might differ on things like what is the attitude of the auxiliary. For instance, Jung would say NiTi is fair game, whereas the closest fit to that in the popular functions theory is an "INFJ" with a strong tertiary function. There's socionics, there's the classic Myers model, there's the Harold Grant model, there's John Beebe's archetypal model, there's Jung's original model from Psychological Types....so many.
 

GavinElster

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
234
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
BardsandWarriors said:
That suggests a person is either IT or ET. Does that describe the world, or is there more complexity at work?

I mean, at some level there's always more complexity at work. You have to single out what level of description you want to study. For instance, we study physics if we want to study some of the most basic levels.
Then, there's biology. And then there's human interactions, sociology, politics, and so on. Each of these is increasingly higher level a system.

At some level, one just has to single out the concept one is interested in studying and do it, I think. I don't think Jung's framework misses much in terms of the phenomena he was interested in -- he might have made many mistakes within that sphere, but he was certainly pretty comprehensive in exploring the relevant angles on what he was interested in.

There's a lot of juicy stuff about dichotomies that can be of interest even to someone interested in functions-stackings, even without ever mentioning stackings once.

The question is are you describing an aspect of the world accurately, not if you describe everything.
 

Bardsandwarriors

Xena's boyfriend
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
100
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
(I'll get back to this thread, after a while in RL...)
 

PurpleDawn

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
137
Eg. Can we group together Fi/Fe and say that strongly F-people use both, to the general exclusion of Ti/Te?

I don't know about that. Personally I'd like to think I'm pretty heavy on feeling, but my judging functions go Fi - Te - Ti - Fe, with Fe being one of my least used functions overall tied with Se.
 

Pionart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,024
MBTI Type
NiFe
I honestly don't think much certainty can be gained in a typing if one doesn't use functions. In fact, without functions, there is no clear boundaries between types; it essentially becomes a traits theory. My typing method works by identifying function order in a person, and it actually works. I see the INFJ function order in my own writing time after time. There is probably something to be gained by looking at dichotomies, but I see no reason to dismiss functions. Some studies purporting to have not seen evidence for functions is not convincing to me in the slightest, especially when I can see functions manifest.
 
Top