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  1. #141
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    This is probably true, but it just as easily goes the other way. J's get scared when P's don't have much of a plan or when the change the plan in the middle of the activity. The "intimidation" goes both ways equally.
    I think that culture plays a huge role here. I can see why somebody could say this. Especially if they are from country with high degree of organistion.(like US)

    But where I live everything is totally P.
    People are easy going, public transportation has a schedule but in practice there is a chaos out there,everything is negotionable and everybody just want to survive a day. Even public institutions have a fair amount of P.

    It is totally ESTP culture.

    I was raised in this kind of environment so I am not planner that must make plans that have everything down to the last detail.
    In this kind of environment and with that kind of thinking you wouldn't get far in most cases.
    So I am always creating plans that are very flexibile and I am always changing them as I go through them and I can't do something without some kind of a plan.
    I think this has actually made ma a good planner because I know that I can't have it exactly as I want and yet I always plan.


    Why have I used word "intimidation"?

    Beacuse the only people who are clearly J in this society are lawyers, bankers and organised crime.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I think that culture plays a huge role here. I can see why somebody could say this. Especially if they are from country with high degree of organistion.(like US)

    But where I live everything is totally P.
    People are easy going, public transportation has a schedule but in practice there is a chaos out there,everything is negotionable and everybody just want to survive a day. Even public institutions have a fair amount of P.

    It is totally ESTP culture.

    I was raised in this kind of environment so I am not planner that must make plans that have everything down to the last detail.
    In this kind of environment and with that kind of thinking you wouldn't get far in most cases.
    So I am always creating plans that are very flexibile and I am always changing them as I go through them and I can't do something without some kind of a plan.
    I think this has actually made ma a good planner because I know that I can't have it exactly as I want and yet I always plan.


    Why have I used word "intimidation"?

    Beacuse the only people who are clearly J in this society are lawyers, bankers and organised crime.
    You're very much stereotyping.

    that said, where do you live? I'm moving there

  3. #143
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    People interpret the word "should" with different levels of definiteness. I doubt I meant it the way you are thinking.
    It's okay, I was being half-facetious.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #144
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Antisocial one, now answer me a question about J's.

    Would a J do what for example I might do? it's not too rare for me to just wake up saturday in the morning, say fuck it and go spend 1-2 days without any prior thought about the subject in lets say Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad or whatever, just for the fuck of it? That is also why we don't like heavily planned structures. Because that is exactly what plans would not allows to do.

    Now don't get me wrong, I have plans. Fairly detailed and throughout ones. But my plans consist of only two points.
    1) Deadline and What I need to present at it.
    2) The objective I need to do NOW, to finish any random part of the whole system whatsoever.
    Beyond this, there I have NO active plans in my days system. And everything else is basically left to, what I feel like doing.

    Another question, tell me this, could a INTJ/ENTJ work like this? This is for example what happened last Friday to me. I woke up at 8 am, wanted to go to work, noticed that I'm too sleepy and felt quite a bit sick. So I screwed over work, slept an extra 8 hours that day, went to work at 7pm and worked till 6 am. In essence, I did all of the work I myself wanted to do and spent an extra 5 hours in it just because I felt like it and I actually did nearly twice the amount of work I had originally wanted to do that day. I would in essence have destroyed any plans for the day if I had absolutely any set up prior wise, but if I had actually followed the hypothetical plan, I would have done maybe 1/5th of the work I did, because I would have felt like shit. Would you consider this to be an acceptable way of doing things? Even if it might actually be more productive?

    Last question, how about you fucking tell us what country is it that you're from. Because the term country X is getting annoying.

  5. #145
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Would a J do what for example I might do? it's not too rare for me to just wake up saturday in the morning, say fuck it and go spend 1-2 days without any prior thought about the subject in lets say Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad or whatever, just for the fuck of it? That is also why we don't like heavily planned structures. Because that is exactly what plans would not allows to do.
    When it comes to this the answer can be 10 pages long but I will try to keep it short.
    The point of planning is not to kill options it is about realizing complex ideas into reality.But even strong J (like me) can do something like this if it looks like a good idea.
    Big picture plans must be flexibile because you won't get far without it.
    But in everyday sitations you can see where things are going and you can create a plan to get things done (or what ever you wnat to do).
    I don't have problems with the idea of changing the plan if better one can be created. But total spontaneity is something that is foreign to me.



    Another question, tell me this, could a INTJ/ENTJ work like this? This is for example what happened last Friday to me. I woke up at 8 am, wanted to go to work, noticed that I'm too sleepy and felt quite a bit sick. So I screwed over work, slept an extra 8 hours that day, went to work at 7pm and worked till 6 am. In essence, I did all of the work I myself wanted to do and spent an extra 5 hours in it just because I felt like it and I actually did nearly twice the amount of work I had originally wanted to do that day. I would in essence have destroyed any plans for the day if I had absolutely any set up prior wise, but if I had actually followed the hypothetical plan, I would have done maybe 1/5th of the work I did, because I would have felt like shit. Would you consider this to be an acceptable way of doing things? Even if it might actually be more productive?

    Of course, Js don't make plans because they want plans. They make them to be more efficient in their work. Working while you are tired is the most stupid choice you can make unless you have a deadline. Because your work will probably have deficit of quality and it will take much longer to complete.
    So you are not actually working and you are not resting = complete waste of time.


    Last question, how about you fucking tell us what country is it that you're from. Because the term country X is getting annoying.
    I am from Croatia, I have said it in other threads but since you are new you you probably didn't come across those posts.
    But don't take my words to be true about the country since I have tested as 100% J on few occasions.

  6. #146
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    Another question, tell me this, could a INTJ/ENTJ work like this? This is for example what happened last Friday to me. I woke up at 8 am, wanted to go to work, noticed that I'm too sleepy and felt quite a bit sick. So I screwed over work, slept an extra 8 hours that day, went to work at 7pm and worked till 6 am. In essence, I did all of the work I myself wanted to do and spent an extra 5 hours in it just because I felt like it and I actually did nearly twice the amount of work I had originally wanted to do that day.
    Did any colleague depend on you being at work? Or was it only the end result that mattered? In the first case, I'd never have been able to sleep over; in the latter, then yes - it's actually optimal to work when you feel like working, rather than when you should, given that productivity is indeed higher.

    (i'll leave this as an aside: I can't work at night - I'm not a night person - so there is no way I would have acted as you, but the principle is the same: I'd probably just have worked the day after)

    Would a J do what for example I might do? it's not too rare for me to just wake up saturday in the morning, say fuck it and go spend 1-2 days without any prior thought about the subject in lets say Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad or whatever, just for the fuck of it? That is also why we don't like heavily planned structures. Because that is exactly what plans would not allows to do.
    If I had no prior agreement with somebody else on where to go and what to do, it wouldn't be a problem at all. However, if I had planned to go out with my girlfriend or with a friend, I wouldn't have done it (I personally don't find plans to be restrictive. I can plan things that I enjoy doing; in that case, it's obvious that I do not like to diverge from the plan. I've visited many places simply by thinking "ok, on Sat I will go visit that place" and doing it.).

    I'm from Italy; my country has a generally P flavor, however my region (north-eastern italy) is relatively more J.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #147
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    If I had no prior agreement with somebody else on where to go and what to do, it wouldn't be a problem at all. However, if I had planned to go out with my girlfriend or with a friend, I wouldn't have done it (I personally don't find plans to be restrictive. I can plan things that I enjoy doing; in that case, it's obvious that I do not like to diverge from the plan. I've visited many places simply by thinking "ok, on Sat I will go visit that place" and doing it.).

    Difference being, I would cancel those plans made prior. Even if it's stuff that I enjoy doing, I hate any prior arrangements, because at one specific time I might have something more interesting to do, at which case I would could not do that.

    Did any colleague depend on you being at work? Or was it only the end result that mattered? In the first case, I'd never have been able to sleep over; in the latter, then yes - it's actually optimal to work when you feel like working, rather than when you should, given that productivity is indeed higher.

    The end result.

    I'm from Italy; my country has a generally P flavor, however my region (north-eastern italy) is relatively more J.

    I am from Croatia, I have said it in other threads but since you are new you you probably didn't come across those posts.
    But don't take my words to be true about the country since I have tested as 100% J on few occasions.


    I know what you're referring to then, this is what the north calls "the southern attitude."

  8. #148
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    Difference being, I would cancel those plans made prior.
    But that's maddening for other people, imho. I mean, I understand that a person might not care less, but I still think that it can be really maddening when others cancel plans just because. Another story is if you just avoid making any plan.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #149
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    But that's maddening for other people, imho. I mean, I understand that a person might not care less, but I still think that it can be really maddening when others cancel plans just because. Another story is if you just avoid making any plan.
    I don't destroy plans that I know will have negative effects on me, but yes, I generally do my best to not have any to destroy. Most of my friends know this already, if they want me to come with them, they will have to come up to me and ask if I want to go with them now.

  10. #150
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    I don't destroy plans that I know will have negative effects on me, but yes, I generally do my best to not have any to destroy. Most of my friends know this already, if they want me to come with them, they will have to come up to me and ask if I want to go with them now.
    I think this captures well the difference between P and J; I personally am more glad if a friend asks me with some time in advance (at least some hours, let's say).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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