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  1. #1
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default Fi-Ni and Ni-Fi loops

    This would apply mostly to INTJs and ISFPs, and it may be a topic that is too difficult to put into words. It is an interesting question to explore what the internal world of this function pairing is like because both of these introverted functions have a strongly subjective aspect to them. I don't typically see this expressed in INTJs and only occasionally in ISFPs. By definition both Fi and Ni are internal, abstract, subjective, and mysterious, and Ni is difficult to put into words. It is typically experienced when alone and inside one's head. What is that world like?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.
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    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #3
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if I have a Fi-Ni loop or not, but this is my private, subjective experiences which makes me consider I could be a type with Fi-Ni. I was actually curious to compare experiences to see if this actually fits with that concept or not. I do get that it is the most difficult internal loop to put into words, but that's why there are no threads about it I could find, and that is why it is interesting to wonder about and discuss.

    In the following I try to describe my spirituality and inner world.

    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #4
    Wei 18 - Sie 39 agentwashington's Avatar
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    TypeC's wiki has a small section on looping under the Tert function, usually one or two paragraphs near the end of the section. Maybe worth a look? I found it very true for Si-Fi loop.
    “Don’t use your strength to oppress, (but also) don’t let your weakness make you feel helpless.”
    - Rurouni Kenshin

    “This world is beautiful. People can love each other and live life respecting each other. Someday everyone will come to realize that and this will become a beautiful world full of only such people.”
    - Kino no Tabi
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  5. #5
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    The concept of a loop should be viewed with some skepticism, just for what it's worth, because the idea that the attitude of the tertiary matches that of the dominant is probably one of the most speculative and least obviously subscribed, as

    - Myers made no mention of this originally in Gifts Differing
    - Jung was perfectly happy with (and in fact seemed to view as the normal example) the top two functions being in the same attitude.

    Please note that this does not imply that Jung thought people were "pure introverts" or "pure extraverts," as he expressly wrote that is not the case. And that such individuals would belong in a lunatic asylum. Rather, the flaw with those who think this is that they're assuming the top two being in the same attitude implies that consciousness is one-sided: in fact, introversion of consciousness was defined as a relative predominance. Hence, it wasn't like there was no extraversion in consciousness, just that the ego's dominant paradigm orients both of the top two.
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  6. #6
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    This would apply mostly to INTJs and ISFPs, and it may be a topic that is too difficult to put into words. It is an interesting question to explore what the internal world of this function pairing is like because both of these introverted functions have a strongly subjective aspect to them. I don't typically see this expressed in INTJs and only occasionally in ISFPs. By definition both Fi and Ni are internal, abstract, subjective, and mysterious, and Ni is difficult to put into words. It is typically experienced when alone and inside one's head. What is that world like?
    I imagine it would be hard to see this sort of loop expressed exactly because it is internally focused. You will see whatever the person can muster of the extraverted functions, dealing with the outer world and every day needs. When I see loops described, the implication is usually that they are unhealthy, or at least unbalanced. The individual is neglecting the functions with the opposite attitude, here Te/Se. Those are bad functions to neglect. But what you describe of your own experience sounds both pleasant and constructive. (It also seems to incorporate significant Se influence as well, perhaps what makes it so.)

    Nearest I can come to describing inner states that (over)rely on Ni-Fi is these:

    1. First is what I will call baseless predictions - baseless because I have no real evidence for them, and have made not even a pretense of vetting them for realism or likelihood. I will hear something, see something, perhaps even remember or think something, and get a very strong sense about its future implications. Either it is something I will eventually do, something that will happen to someone else, how a situation will evolve, or perhaps just a piece of information or a person that will become important somehow. This sounds like an instantaneous thing - that often mentioned "flash of intuition" - but what I am describing here goes beyond that. It is slow, and a state of being that can go on for some minutes or longer, especially if I want it to. I can relax and almost deliberately experience that feeling of impending whatever. I can play out various scenarios of the event coming to pass, all the while knowing that the actual chain of events may be completely different from what I imagine. It is almost like I am viewing a fuzzy paining through the proverbial glass, darkly. I cannot make it more distinct by focusing on it, but I can somehow become comfortable in the feeling of it. If one of these coalesces enough to become less ephemeral and withstand deliberate scrutiny, it becomes a more balanced "Ni vision" that can be acted upon. (Now that sounds vague and convoluted. Sorry - best I can do for now.)

    2. I do enjoy relaxing in and communing with nature. But I come closest to what you describe when experiencing certain human-made structures, especially places. If I can spend quiet, leisurely time there, I start to feel a connection with the people who made and used the spaces. This can be especially strong with old or historic places: say Stonehenge, or Plymouth Plantation, or even my cousin's old house in New England that was built around 1800. It's not so much that I am imagining in any realistic sense how people lived in those times, it's almost as if I can place myself there, and feel a connection across ages and cultures to some fundamental aspects of our humanity that are served by our deliberate constructions.

    3. Finally, what comes closest to the unhealthy loops described in many online references, is a negative variation on (1). My imagination can become preoccupied with negative things that could come to pass. I know in my rational mind that the likelihood of most of them is small, or perhaps that I do not yet know enough even to assign probabilities, but my internal subjective judgment will not be assuaged and fixates on the negative aspects, spinning more and more negative ramifications out from them. This takes some effort to resist, and is best done by focusing carefully on what I can address, and acting on that.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #7
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    I wonder why there is a tendency to almost do, exactly what is unhealthy for the self, when we are in states of prolonged stress, depression, or what have you. It seems in trying times for example, I tend to pull inwards and exclude myself from the outside world. I can understand it on logical level, as I prefer to understand things on my own and to explore a situation, coming up with my own conclusions. However, the very act of isolating myself, and in times of extreme stress or depression, I will do so for longer periods of time, is also the very thing that will throw me further into a hole of leaving me feeling MORE isolated and alone than I did to begin with, and that all starts with that first move to want to isolate and remove myself and my thoughts from the external world.

    Everyone seems to understand that loops only occur in negative situations, but they also seem to stem from actions we take before we even enter into a loop. It would seem, that for me, for example, what I should do, is not to isolate my thoughts and emotions from others, but to continue extroverting myself as I normally do, but perhaps more so, since that is where I tend to feel my most productive and most "alive" so to speak.

    That was just some tangential thought I had after reading others' posts, but to return to the idea of an Ni/Fi loop INTJs can have, or really, something I've been curious about, is what Fi feels like to an INTJ, is something of high interest to me. I feel my Fi is rather accessible and neatly categorized to an extent, and perhaps because it's led by Ne and supported by Te, but to have Ni lead Fi, leads me to think that as deep as Fi can often feel for me, the Fi INTJs might know, seems to be something entirely indescribable and some complete black hole of emotion.

    Any INTJs feel like divulging some personal Fi experience?
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  8. #8
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'd like to bump and revisit this thread. Any more Ni Fi loopage to share?

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    I've been wondering about this myself. Through the ISFP's perspective, wouldn't this indicate that they'd be prone to over analyzing everything as well as overly anxious and paranoid about future possibilities? The combination of Fi + Ni would certainly imply higher introversion than usual, and so they'd probably be stuck wallowing in their own sorrows when they should be doing activities related to their Se in order to get out of the Fi-Ni rut of worrying about Ni preoccupations that are supposedly foreign to them. Ni needs to work in service of Se rather than the other way around. That's why a balance of both introverted and extroverted functions would be necessary to escape the extremities of two introverted functions working side by side with one another. The dominant and auxiliary functions work together as a yin and yang.

    I personally never related to the side effects of this loop very much. Maybe it is a theory that is valid for certain individuals depending on what stage their Ni is developed?
    "If only every generation would realize that the time for greatness is right now when they’re alive…the time to flower is now."

    – Patti Smith
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    That was just some tangential thought I had after reading others' posts, but to return to the idea of an Ni/Fi loop INTJs can have, or really, something I've been curious about, is what Fi feels like to an INTJ, is something of high interest to me. I feel my Fi is rather accessible and neatly categorized to an extent, and perhaps because it's led by Ne and supported by Te, but to have Ni lead Fi, leads me to think that as deep as Fi can often feel for me, the Fi INTJs might know, seems to be something entirely indescribable and some complete black hole of emotion.

    Any INTJs feel like divulging some personal Fi experience?
    I have no idea how I think about feelings. Or is that linguistically incorrect, and it's how I experience feelings? I think I'd need to do a lot of reading on feelings and introspection in order to contribute to this, but then again I want to contribute. Perhaps I'm just quite underdeveloped in Fi so far (I'm in my early 20s), or maybe I just need to go to bed in order to function properly.
    MBTI: INTJ
    Functions: Te (53.8) > Ti (51.6) > Ni (34.2) > Si (26.4) > Ne (25.1) > Se (20.1) > Fi (14.6) > Fe (13.8)
    Enneagram: 1 (50) > 5 (46) > 9 (44) > 6 (17) > 4 (15) > 2 (12) > 3 (7) > 7 (2) > 8 (0). 1w9

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