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Fi-Ni and Ni-Fi loops

Siúil a Rúin

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This would apply mostly to INTJs and ISFPs, and it may be a topic that is too difficult to put into words. It is an interesting question to explore what the internal world of this function pairing is like because both of these introverted functions have a strongly subjective aspect to them. I don't typically see this expressed in INTJs and only occasionally in ISFPs. By definition both Fi and Ni are internal, abstract, subjective, and mysterious, and Ni is difficult to put into words. It is typically experienced when alone and inside one's head. What is that world like?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'm not sure if I have a Fi-Ni loop or not, but this is my private, subjective experiences which makes me consider I could be a type with Fi-Ni. I was actually curious to compare experiences to see if this actually fits with that concept or not. I do get that it is the most difficult internal loop to put into words, but that's why there are no threads about it I could find, and that is why it is interesting to wonder about and discuss.

In the following I try to describe my spirituality and inner world.

 

Agent Washington

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TypeC's wiki has a small section on looping under the Tert function, usually one or two paragraphs near the end of the section. Maybe worth a look? I found it very true for Si-Fi loop.
 

GavinElster

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The concept of a loop should be viewed with some skepticism, just for what it's worth, because the idea that the attitude of the tertiary matches that of the dominant is probably one of the most speculative and least obviously subscribed, as

- Myers made no mention of this originally in Gifts Differing
- Jung was perfectly happy with (and in fact seemed to view as the normal example) the top two functions being in the same attitude.

Please note that this does not imply that Jung thought people were "pure introverts" or "pure extraverts," as he expressly wrote that is not the case. And that such individuals would belong in a lunatic asylum. Rather, the flaw with those who think this is that they're assuming the top two being in the same attitude implies that consciousness is one-sided: in fact, introversion of consciousness was defined as a relative predominance. Hence, it wasn't like there was no extraversion in consciousness, just that the ego's dominant paradigm orients both of the top two.
 

Coriolis

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This would apply mostly to INTJs and ISFPs, and it may be a topic that is too difficult to put into words. It is an interesting question to explore what the internal world of this function pairing is like because both of these introverted functions have a strongly subjective aspect to them. I don't typically see this expressed in INTJs and only occasionally in ISFPs. By definition both Fi and Ni are internal, abstract, subjective, and mysterious, and Ni is difficult to put into words. It is typically experienced when alone and inside one's head. What is that world like?
I imagine it would be hard to see this sort of loop expressed exactly because it is internally focused. You will see whatever the person can muster of the extraverted functions, dealing with the outer world and every day needs. When I see loops described, the implication is usually that they are unhealthy, or at least unbalanced. The individual is neglecting the functions with the opposite attitude, here Te/Se. Those are bad functions to neglect. But what you describe of your own experience sounds both pleasant and constructive. (It also seems to incorporate significant Se influence as well, perhaps what makes it so.)

Nearest I can come to describing inner states that (over)rely on Ni-Fi is these:

1. First is what I will call baseless predictions - baseless because I have no real evidence for them, and have made not even a pretense of vetting them for realism or likelihood. I will hear something, see something, perhaps even remember or think something, and get a very strong sense about its future implications. Either it is something I will eventually do, something that will happen to someone else, how a situation will evolve, or perhaps just a piece of information or a person that will become important somehow. This sounds like an instantaneous thing - that often mentioned "flash of intuition" - but what I am describing here goes beyond that. It is slow, and a state of being that can go on for some minutes or longer, especially if I want it to. I can relax and almost deliberately experience that feeling of impending whatever. I can play out various scenarios of the event coming to pass, all the while knowing that the actual chain of events may be completely different from what I imagine. It is almost like I am viewing a fuzzy paining through the proverbial glass, darkly. I cannot make it more distinct by focusing on it, but I can somehow become comfortable in the feeling of it. If one of these coalesces enough to become less ephemeral and withstand deliberate scrutiny, it becomes a more balanced "Ni vision" that can be acted upon. (Now that sounds vague and convoluted. Sorry - best I can do for now.)

2. I do enjoy relaxing in and communing with nature. But I come closest to what you describe when experiencing certain human-made structures, especially places. If I can spend quiet, leisurely time there, I start to feel a connection with the people who made and used the spaces. This can be especially strong with old or historic places: say Stonehenge, or Plymouth Plantation, or even my cousin's old house in New England that was built around 1800. It's not so much that I am imagining in any realistic sense how people lived in those times, it's almost as if I can place myself there, and feel a connection across ages and cultures to some fundamental aspects of our humanity that are served by our deliberate constructions.

3. Finally, what comes closest to the unhealthy loops described in many online references, is a negative variation on (1). My imagination can become preoccupied with negative things that could come to pass. I know in my rational mind that the likelihood of most of them is small, or perhaps that I do not yet know enough even to assign probabilities, but my internal subjective judgment will not be assuaged and fixates on the negative aspects, spinning more and more negative ramifications out from them. This takes some effort to resist, and is best done by focusing carefully on what I can address, and acting on that.
 

Dreamer

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I wonder why there is a tendency to almost do, exactly what is unhealthy for the self, when we are in states of prolonged stress, depression, or what have you. It seems in trying times for example, I tend to pull inwards and exclude myself from the outside world. I can understand it on logical level, as I prefer to understand things on my own and to explore a situation, coming up with my own conclusions. However, the very act of isolating myself, and in times of extreme stress or depression, I will do so for longer periods of time, is also the very thing that will throw me further into a hole of leaving me feeling MORE isolated and alone than I did to begin with, and that all starts with that first move to want to isolate and remove myself and my thoughts from the external world.

Everyone seems to understand that loops only occur in negative situations, but they also seem to stem from actions we take before we even enter into a loop. It would seem, that for me, for example, what I should do, is not to isolate my thoughts and emotions from others, but to continue extroverting myself as I normally do, but perhaps more so, since that is where I tend to feel my most productive and most "alive" so to speak.

That was just some tangential thought I had after reading others' posts, but to return to the idea of an Ni/Fi loop INTJs can have, or really, something I've been curious about, is what Fi feels like to an INTJ, is something of high interest to me. I feel my Fi is rather accessible and neatly categorized to an extent, and perhaps because it's led by Ne and supported by Te, but to have Ni lead Fi, leads me to think that as deep as Fi can often feel for me, the Fi INTJs might know, seems to be something entirely indescribable and some complete black hole of emotion.

Any INTJs feel like divulging some personal Fi experience?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'd like to bump and revisit this thread. Any more Ni Fi loopage to share?
 
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I've been wondering about this myself. Through the ISFP's perspective, wouldn't this indicate that they'd be prone to over analyzing everything as well as overly anxious and paranoid about future possibilities? The combination of Fi + Ni would certainly imply higher introversion than usual, and so they'd probably be stuck wallowing in their own sorrows when they should be doing activities related to their Se in order to get out of the Fi-Ni rut of worrying about Ni preoccupations that are supposedly foreign to them. Ni needs to work in service of Se rather than the other way around. That's why a balance of both introverted and extroverted functions would be necessary to escape the extremities of two introverted functions working side by side with one another. The dominant and auxiliary functions work together as a yin and yang.

I personally never related to the side effects of this loop very much. Maybe it is a theory that is valid for certain individuals depending on what stage their Ni is developed?
 

Xiadais

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That was just some tangential thought I had after reading others' posts, but to return to the idea of an Ni/Fi loop INTJs can have, or really, something I've been curious about, is what Fi feels like to an INTJ, is something of high interest to me. I feel my Fi is rather accessible and neatly categorized to an extent, and perhaps because it's led by Ne and supported by Te, but to have Ni lead Fi, leads me to think that as deep as Fi can often feel for me, the Fi INTJs might know, seems to be something entirely indescribable and some complete black hole of emotion.

Any INTJs feel like divulging some personal Fi experience?

I have no idea how I think about feelings. Or is that linguistically incorrect, and it's how I experience feelings? I think I'd need to do a lot of reading on feelings and introspection in order to contribute to this, but then again I want to contribute. Perhaps I'm just quite underdeveloped in Fi so far (I'm in my early 20s), or maybe I just need to go to bed in order to function properly.
 

Metis

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Through the ISFP's perspective, wouldn't this indicate that they'd be prone to over analyzing everything as well as overly anxious and paranoid about future possibilities? The combination of Fi + Ni would certainly imply higher introversion than usual, and so they'd probably be stuck wallowing in their own sorrows when they should be doing activities related to their Se in order to get out of the Fi-Ni rut of worrying about Ni preoccupations that are supposedly foreign to them. Ni needs to work in service of Se rather than the other way around.

I think this might be me. But I have post-traumatic stress, too, and it's hard to know what I'd be like now if I didn't. I might have been an ENFP before, but I don't know. Other people thought I was shy, but I didn't feel shy. Someone at the time labelled me INTP.

I do get stuck in my thoughts and ruminate, and they aren't generally "systematizing"-type thoughts. They're more F-like thoughts, and are usually rather negative. I used to be a daydreamer, and my daydreams then were always very optimistic, for a long time, even in spite of negative things going on in my life. It took a long time for me to turn into a pessimistic, paranoid ruminator. I eventually gave up my optimistic approach and accepted my fate, not in the sense of "acceptance", but in the sense of fatalism and anger. I became cynical.

I know INFPs are probably the most notorious in relation to daydreaming, and I've considered the possibility that I'm an INFP, especially since I'm self-absorbed (LOL!). But I usually find INFPs to seem more introspectively-nuanced, and also articulate about it. I also don't have the interpersonal intelligence that most healthy INFPs and ISFPs have. I'm too wrapped up in my own mind.

I don't lack for care and consideration of others, and empathy, but I express those by volunteering with activities that I think are valuable to the recipients. When I'm alone, I spend a lot of time ruminating in ways that probably, for the most part, aren't good for me. Although it does provide me with the occasional insight, it mostly just reinforces a defensive, anxious, resentful and defeatist mindset.

I find the idea that I might be in an Fi-Ni loop, and that getting engaged in sensory activities is a remedy for it, to be an interesting idea.
 
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I think this might be me. But I have post-traumatic stress, too, and it's hard to know what I'd be like now if I didn't. I might have been an ENFP before, but I don't know. Other people thought I was shy, but I didn't feel shy. Someone at the time labelled me INTP.

I do get stuck in my thoughts and ruminate, and they aren't generally "systematizing"-type thoughts. They're more F-like thoughts, and are usually rather negative. I used to be a daydreamer, and my daydreams then were always very optimistic, for a long time, even in spite of negative things going on in my life. It took a long time for me to turn into a pessimistic, paranoid ruminator. I eventually gave up my optimistic approach and accepted my fate, not in the sense of "acceptance", but in the sense of fatalism and anger. I became cynical.

I know INFPs are probably the most notorious in relation to daydreaming, and I've considered the possibility that I'm an INFP, especially since I'm self-absorbed (LOL!). But I usually find INFPs to seem more introspectively-nuanced, and also articulate about it. I also don't have the interpersonal intelligence that most healthy INFPs and ISFPs have. I'm too wrapped up in my own mind.

I don't lack for care and consideration of others, and empathy, but I express those by volunteering with activities that I think are valuable to the recipients. When I'm alone, I spend a lot of time ruminating in ways that probably, for the most part, aren't good for me. Although it does provide me with the occasional insight, it mostly just reinforces a defensive, anxious, resentful and defeatist mindset.

I find the idea that I might be in an Fi-Ni loop, and that getting engaged in sensory activities is a remedy for it, to be an interesting idea.

That could be a possibility actually. For me, I've noticed that I'd need to make something become a reality in order for me to feel satisfied in life. I think that is why I'm still okay with daydreaming about certain desires of mine, even some that may seem out of my reach. As long as I meet a particular end goal I think I'd be fine, otherwise I'm pretty certain I'd become cynical and pessimistic as well.

I remember when I was a teenager I was much more angst-ridden and depressed because I wasn't doing much to satisfy my own aspirations. Once I began putting effort into something that was meaningful to me was when I realized I had the potential to make a particular dream of mine come true, so naturally I became filled with a little more hope and contentment in general.

I'm assuming a large part of it is because I began honing in on my Se in order to fulfill my dom-Fi's idealism. It makes sense when I think about it now.
 

Metis

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That could be a possibility actually. For me, I've noticed that I'd need to make something become a reality in order for me to feel satisfied in life. I think that is why I'm still okay with daydreaming about certain desires of mine, even some that may seem out of my reach. As long as I meet a particular end goal I think I'd be fine, otherwise I'm pretty certain I'd become cynical and pessimistic as well.

I remember when I was a teenager I was much more angst-ridden and depressed because I wasn't doing much to satisfy my own aspirations. Once I began putting effort into something that was meaningful to me was when I realized I had the potential to make a particular dream of mine come true, so naturally I became filled with a little more hope and contentment in general.

I'm assuming a large part of it is because I began honing in on my Se in order to fulfill my dom-Fi's idealism. It makes sense when I think about it now.

What do you do that's Se that helps you do that?

I started doing a weightlifting program (it has other stuff but I like that the most) a few months ago, and although I joined it to get in better shape, I like getting absorbed in it and being involved both mentally and physically in it. I never experienced that when I did yoga, some with hiking, but lifting weights doesn't leave any room for daydreaming. And then I feel excited and proud of myself when I'm able to lift heavier than I thought I could, or did before. As though I were a kid learning new skills. Not skills for fun or work, or for the sake of having knowledge of a particular field. Not even for wisdom. Just life skills, in the sense that it's making me stronger and healthier. And keeping me from atrophying too fast, LOL! So I feel excited on a more personal level than if it were something else. I never expected to have that reaction to it.

Yeah, I don't daydream about what could be as much as when I was a kid. I either try and look into it if I'm interested and if it seems feasible, or I don't. But then once I start, sometimes it's hard to focus because my mind wants to go in its own direction. I'm not having that problem with the weightlifting, though--I think because it's not a predominantly mental pursuit.

I've definitely been neglecting the Se dimension most of my life, to my detriment. Don't know if it's a Fi-Ni loop or not, though. Could also be a Ti-Ni loop or some other kind of loop.

:sartre:

"Could just be that exercise is good for you."--Jean-Paul Sartre (fake quote)
 

Andy

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This would apply mostly to INTJs and ISFPs, and it may be a topic that is too difficult to put into words. It is an interesting question to explore what the internal world of this function pairing is like because both of these introverted functions have a strongly subjective aspect to them. I don't typically see this expressed in INTJs and only occasionally in ISFPs. By definition both Fi and Ni are internal, abstract, subjective, and mysterious, and Ni is difficult to put into words. It is typically experienced when alone and inside one's head. What is that world like?

The primary characteristic of any double introversion loop is that it stifles the ability to act. Fundamentally, that's the difference between introverted and extroverted functions. Introverted function promote contemplation, extroverted ones promote action. It's the balance of the two that creates a healthy mix of considering and doing.

It's usually the weakest of the two functions that ferments the problem. In an Ni-Fi loop, the week Fi creates uncertainty as to what is desirable, leaving the dominant Ni with no clear goal to work towards. Unable to feed the INTJs primary need to pursue long term objectives, the individual tends to slip into depression. Often, the inferior Se kicks in as they try to distract themselves with overwhelming stimulus to block out the pointlessness of their own existence.

Fi-Ni loops are a little different. The dominant Fi gives a clearer picture of what is desirable, but the weak Ni creates uncertainty in how to go about it. It can leave them feeling that what they want in unobtainable, or that the only way to maintain their standards is to retreat from the world altogether. Once again, despair tends to result.
 
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Sorry about the late reply. Just goes to show I can be a total scatterbrain sometimes. :doh:

What do you do that's Se that helps you do that?

I do oil painting. I'm pretty much a walking stereotype in that regard haha.

I started doing a weightlifting program (it has other stuff but I like that the most) a few months ago, and although I joined it to get in better shape, I like getting absorbed in it and being involved both mentally and physically in it. I never experienced that when I did yoga, some with hiking, but lifting weights doesn't leave any room for daydreaming. And then I feel excited and proud of myself when I'm able to lift heavier than I thought I could, or did before. As though I were a kid learning new skills. Not skills for fun or work, or for the sake of having knowledge of a particular field. Not even for wisdom. Just life skills, in the sense that it's making me stronger and healthier. And keeping me from atrophying too fast, LOL! So I feel excited on a more personal level than if it were something else. I never expected to have that reaction to it.

Yeah, I used to be a gym bunny back when I was in college. Although I'm the opposite to you when it comes to exercise preference because I actually prefer yoga to the gym lol. I guess I vibe a little better with slower paced exercises in general, preferring a smaller rush over a greater one. Not sure if harder exercises are usually associated with Se, but all I know is my sister is an ISFP and she hates exercise of any kind. She'd rather use her Se for leisurely activities that are of interest to her.

Yeah, I don't daydream about what could be as much as when I was a kid. I either try and look into it if I'm interested and if it seems feasible, or I don't. But then once I start, sometimes it's hard to focus because my mind wants to go in its own direction. I'm not having that problem with the weightlifting, though--I think because it's not a predominantly mental pursuit.

I think idealistic daydreaming is more of a childlike quality that is usually repressed once we become adults and have other worries on our mind. However, I think it also has some properties that can be beneficial, like if one is affiliated with the arts or other creative endeavors and perhaps utilizes their imagination in that way, but not so much in the general concrete sense of the real world. Yeah, I guess I'd say Se is at play through tangible activities, but doesn't necessarily require much mental stimulation overall.

I've definitely been neglecting the Se dimension most of my life, to my detriment. Don't know if it's a Fi-Ni loop or not, though. Could also be a Ti-Ni loop or some other kind of loop.

:sartre:

"Could just be that exercise is good for you."--Jean-Paul Sartre (fake quote)

It could be a Ti-Ni loop as well perhaps, although I'm not very familiar with those in all honesty. My Se also seems to be pretty weak based off of numerous cognitive function tests I took in the past. I generally end up with pretty high Si at times too, which is bizarre because it's supposedly not one of my preferred functions to use. Hmm...I'd assume exercise doesn't necessarily pertain to type, as I would think it's more of an interest than something that is purely based on typology theory itself. However, many of the MBTI descriptions tend to rely on archetypal behavior a little too much to where it can become a bit black and white in some aspects too. It could be something you just happen to enjoy for the sake of it. Eh, sorry, not sure if this helps. I probably just made it a little more confusing than it needs to be.
 

CMoore

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This would apply mostly to INTJs and ISFPs, and it may be a topic that is too difficult to put into words. It is an interesting question to explore what the internal world of this function pairing is like because both of these introverted functions have a strongly subjective aspect to them. I don't typically see this expressed in INTJs and only occasionally in ISFPs. By definition both Fi and Ni are internal, abstract, subjective, and mysterious, and Ni is difficult to put into words. It is typically experienced when alone and inside one's head. What is that world like?
For my son who is 13 and an isfp, I can give an example of his Fi/Ni loop. He does this regularly and it has always been a problem of him being stuck in it for hours and having difficulty getting out and moving on with the day. As he has gotten older it's a little shorter lived.
Something negative will happen, say he "has his ankles broken" (where you fall down because someone fakes you out) in a basketball game and there is laughter at his expense. He will perseverate on this shame and embarrassment for hours. He will repeat it out loud over and over again what happened and deny its legitimacy to no end. Endlessly ruminating on what happened and how his immature Ni interperets it and bounces back and forth from the feeling fi to the Ni interperatation unable to think logically or see that everyone else has moved on or that it really isn't that big of a deal and even the pros have it happen. You can't break into his loop and he is stuck there indefinitely sometimes for hours.
I don't know if there is such a thing as an acute loop vs a chronic loop? Situational reactions vs a constant choosing to live in that loop?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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For my son who is 13 and an isfp, I can give an example of his Fi/Ni loop. He does this regularly and it has always been a problem of him being stuck in it for hours and having difficulty getting out and moving on with the day. As he has gotten older it's a little shorter lived.
Something negative will happen, say he "has his ankles broken" (where you fall down because someone fakes you out) in a basketball game and there is laughter at his expense. He will perseverate on this shame and embarrassment for hours. He will repeat it out loud over and over again what happened and deny its legitimacy to no end. Endlessly ruminating on what happened and how his immature Ni interperets it and bounces back and forth from the feeling fi to the Ni interperatation unable to think logically or see that everyone else has moved on or that it really isn't that big of a deal and even the pros have it happen. You can't break into his loop and he is stuck there indefinitely sometimes for hours.
I don't know if there is such a thing as an acute loop vs a chronic loop? Situational reactions vs a constant choosing to live in that loop?
I have experienced something similar, but there is an aspect to it that doesn't relate to immaturity. As a middle-aged person with a lot of life experience, I have experienced negative emotional loops. Ni sees patterns that reduce down to singularities and Fi experiences a sense of values relating to these patterns. When I am stuck in a negative emotional/social loop it is because the external pattern feels so absolute and overwhelming. The sense is that people will always fall into this behavior, and I feel trapped. This is especially difficult when there doesn't seem to be an answer for correcting the problem externally. It makes it possible to become very depressed about the nature of reality and the hurtful patterns that are so entrenched in humanity.

I had to develop a cognitive technique to help break the cycle. I will deliberately meditate on random associations in my mind to try to breakup the deeply entrenched neuro-pathways. I'll think of the most random series of concepts I can like: "pencil, rowboat, page 47, nebula, horse saddle, Capricorn, statistics, etc." It is difficult to make the transition, but this technique has helped me when I felt like I couldn't break out of it.

The reasoning that I use when getting stuck in a loop long after the outside people have forgotten an incident is this: if those people were capable of that hurtful behavior in that instance in the past, then it is part of who they are. They will do it again. Even if they forget about it, the nature of that behavior persists, and has in no way ended. If I couldn't figure out how to deal with it internally or externally in that past moment, then I'm doomed to be hurt again. In this way I obsess on it until I can find a solution, but in dealing with people there are often no solutions because the nature of people is such that they are going to behave a certain way, so I have to develop the skill to respond with apathy, to avoid them, or develop an assertive tactic that puts a stop to it. Those are the options, and sometimes they can all feel out of reach if the emotional impact is painful enough.
 

Sacrophagus

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My childhood had some Ni-Fi loops that rendered me stronger over the years, and I'm glad I'm always learning.
When you hold yourself to high standard, you subject yourself to the risk of treating yourself harshly. A shameful moment, a failure, something out of your control which had the better of you in a moment of weakness, guilt, remorse, darkened sadness, helplessness and a list of emotions that sometimes get worse and worse the more you're resisting them. It stemmed from the fact that we sought complete control over circumstances themselves, not accepting our flaws, denying their existence, and continueing the masquerade in a self-perpetuating circle. The bigger your ego, the harder you fall.

I used to temporarily get out of the Ni-Fi loop by getting into a robotic Te-Se loop. Workaholism, and denial.

When you grow up, you learn how to deal with the Ni-Fi loop by being more forgiving to yourself, more loving to yourself, obssessing no more and letting go.
It takes some effort to be conscious of your thoughts, monitor them, stop yourself when you see that you're drifting and engaging in that unproductive dialogue inside your head, and change them into thoughts which will serve you. Excersing my brain to do that allowed me to break Ni-Fi loops willingly. Now, that was long ago. Toxic people can only dream to sway me from my center, as the art of not giving a fuck and the art of loving yourself, will always allow you to remain centered. You might even sardonically smile at them with pity with eyes that say "You're so cute. Try harder".
 

Metis

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I've exposed myself to a lot of information and others' emotions that have probably re-traumatised me, even though I intended for it to inure me and make me tougher, stronger, and wiser. Now, when I read, hear, or even think about anything bad being done by others to others, I tend to self-reference and feel it as re-experiencing trauma of my own. It's not empathy. It's not competition, either. It doesn't seem to be strengthening to my spirit or anything like that. It's just torture. But if I try to change my frame of reference, ignore evil, and think about uplifting things, it seems like bullshit, and I can't buy it.
 

Zeego

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The concept of a loop should be viewed with some skepticism, just for what it's worth, because the idea that the attitude of the tertiary matches that of the dominant is probably one of the most speculative and least obviously subscribed, as

- Myers made no mention of this originally in Gifts Differing
- Jung was perfectly happy with (and in fact seemed to view as the normal example) the top two functions being in the same attitude.

Please note that this does not imply that Jung thought people were "pure introverts" or "pure extraverts," as he expressly wrote that is not the case. And that such individuals would belong in a lunatic asylum. Rather, the flaw with those who think this is that they're assuming the top two being in the same attitude implies that consciousness is one-sided: in fact, introversion of consciousness was defined as a relative predominance. Hence, it wasn't like there was no extraversion in consciousness, just that the ego's dominant paradigm orients both of the top two.

This. I find it interesting how the Grant/Beebe stack has taken such a stronghold in the typology community, and alternative stacks like Jung's proto-model are ignored. It's especially interesting how the idea of loops has caught on like wildfire despite originating in a post by some PerC user instead of any statements or writings by professional psychologists who are involved in typology. It really shows how fandom-run this whole thing is.
 
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