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  1. #71
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    T - Everyone should be treated fairly.
    F - Everyone should be treated as an individual.

    What say you?
    i say, we need to take a deeper look

    *gets out screwdriver and crescent wrench*


    although lots of people have given more insightful responses, i actually think the OP is going in the right direction (in a certain sense) than those and i will explain why.

    the reason the concept of fairness exists is because it creates a baseline for everyone to adhere to, and allows society to function better overall.

    the only way to be truly fair is to ignore exceptions, that is true objectivity. there is a fundamental difference between needing to expand the baseline to cover such exceptions in a way that can still apply to everyone and actually making an exception to said baseline.

    there will always be people that claim exception, but the reason they shouldn't is because statistically, for every one thing they think they should be exempt of there will be far more things that other people could claim exemption from. although it might be stupid and inefficient, ultimately as long as everyone is held against the same objective, unconditional guideline, it is fair.

    now, if i had to correlate this to T/F, I would say that T-type will more readily grasp this importance (i cant help but word it that way, im a T afterall) while an F-type will not, thus they would be more inclined to treat each person individually... which is intrinsically unfair and un-objective.



    with that said, it is more considerate of each person's feelings of individuality... most people do not understand the aforementioned, perhaps it is truly fair, then, to consider each unfairly, since being truly objective is actually out of the norm, which would be unfair!

    what's more fair, perpetuating unfairness to everyone fairly, or being unfair in the sense that you are one person who judges everyone fairly when most people dont.

    errrrr, its friday, i shouldnt have to think this hard

  2. #72
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post

    the only way to be truly fair is to ignore exceptions, that is true objectivity.
    Too simplistic. Exceptions to laws prove their inadequacy. That is why we have case law to revise/supplement statutes based on reasoned judgments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    ...although it might be stupid and inefficient, ultimately as long as everyone is held against the same objective, unconditional guideline, it is fair
    How can anything stupid and inefficient be fair. Surely, it is unfair - but equally unfair to everyone.

  3. #73
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I still think Fe and Te are more about fairness than Ti and Fi... like I said I reckon if it's about fair and individual then the distinction is between Je and Ji. If it's between T and F then you've got to think about what Te and Ti, and then Fe and Fi have in common.

    An ENFJ I know, when taking issue with somebody and suggesting an alternative course of action will always finish the sentence with "Okay? Is that fair?" as a rhetorical question, as in, she knows we will agree that it's fair and on that basis find it impossible to disagree. I think fairness is a big deal for Fe types. Whereas I think Te types are more about justice, which is a slightly different thing.

    I think what Fe and Fi both have in common is that they both prefer to have positive emotional atmospheres, whilst Te and Ti have in common that they're less sensitive to emotional atmospheres and prefer to have logical, efficient atmospheres.

    As a T, I don't particularly value fairness, personally... it usually entails some sort of compromise, and I'm not good at compromise. As I've said elsewhere, compromise means nobody gets what they want I'd rather totally give in and let the other person have their way so that at least SOMEBODY does, than have half a loaf - that is, if I can't get THEM to totally give in lol
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Too simplistic. Exceptions to laws prove their inadequacy. That is why we have case law to revise/supplement statutes based on reasoned judgments.
    already addressed that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    there is a fundamental difference between needing to expand the baseline to cover such exceptions in a way that can still apply to everyone and actually making an exception to said baseline.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    How can anything stupid and inefficient be fair. Surely, it is unfair - but equally unfair to everyone.
    sure you're not an F? just kidding! (just kidding Fs! dont kill me.)

    too many people connotate"fair" with some sort of good outcome, like a kid who doesnt get their way "that's not fair!"

    it's not about good or bad, it's about objective equality. this is an important concept, so we start with this... then we expand on our rules to handle the exceptions that come up so that they can address them in a way that still applies to everybody the same. ideally, we'd like to reach a point that we dont have to do anything stupid or inefficient for the sake of equality, that would be the ideal. but most of the time it is going to be maintaining this balance for everyone at the cost of the potential benefits lost by the minority.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    II think fairness is a big deal for Fe types. Whereas I think Te types are more about justice, which is a slightly different thing.
    aha, but is something that makes everyone feel like they got a fair deal still necessarily equal? are we measuring equality in a logical and quantifiable method or by perceived experiences? that would be entirely too complicated!

    and anyways, outside discussing this, i can be completely unfair and i dont follow anything if i dont agree with the spirit of the law and i know i can get away with it that's Machiavellian fairness! so what do i know?

    okay, it's 5:00, im clocking my brain out.:ouch:

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    aha, but is something that makes everyone feel like they got a fair deal still necessarily equal?
    I would assume you mention that because we both see through this transparent ploy easily, and don't tend to appreciate it.

  7. #77
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    that's why i drew a distinction between fairness and justice, between fairness and equality.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #78
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    it's not about good or bad, it's about objective equality. this is an important concept, so we start with this...
    been thinking about this and this distinction between treating everyone the same/"fairly" and treating everyone as an individual is less about T vs F then E vs I, isn't it?

  9. #79
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    T - Everyone should be treated fairly.
    F - Everyone should be treated as an individual.

    What say you?
    So vague they are both true. I personally want both, and would not be able to choose one if I had to. I know many Ts (ENTPs) who would agree with me.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

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  10. #80
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    As usual, I'm late to the party. But I'd make one adjustment to this, as above.

    I mean, it's Te that minimizes individuality, not Ti. To me individuality is very important and Fi is my weakest function. Plus, I've known Fe types to have the mentality that everyone should be treated their definition of 'well', that is, how they believe everyone wants to be treated. Often without actual consideration of the individual's quirks and whatever.
    I think that's referred to as an internalised F. Don't ask.. I'm still trying to sort that one out myself. All I understand is a little intuitive bit attached directly to the name.
    So in fact, I don't think T is about fairness even. If anything is about equality, treating people EQUALLY (weakness: forgetting individual differences of need), then it's Xe. Whilst Xi is about individuality (weakness: not considering place of own actions in wider context).
    ?

    Firstly Ti is about labelling and defining, so we naturally become fair more so than individual and secondly you think that an ENFJ is more likely to treat everyone to a standard than as individuals? Have you seen how many bits of road kill they bring home determined to breathe life into this, often self broken, individual? It's crazy!!
    The T and F difference I'd say would be more like this:

    T - everyone should be treated (and be expected to behave) reasonably
    F - everyone should be treated (and be expected to behave) nicely
    Also true.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I think everyone should be treated fairly,
    and to treat every person on an individual basis is to play favorites.

    If a law is established stating that the speed limit is 30 on a certain road, and I am the only one driving 30 on that road and everyone else is getting away with driving 40, that makes me mad,
    especially when some of the people going 40 are rude to me and tailgate me because I am obeying the law.
    The perfect example of a T mind coupled with an F sense of "do that once more and I'm removing your camshaft, k?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i say, we need to take a deeper look
    Excellent. Thanks.. much needed clarity there.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ...
    Dude, it's not supposed to be one or the other. It's only representative of the particular maxim which you first move towards. Very few people actually think that either are achievable and none of them are very clever.
    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    So vague they are both true. I personally want both, and would not be able to choose one if I had to. I know many Ts (ENTPs) who would agree with me.
    ENxP "I think I'm both"
    Me "Surprise"

    As my father would say "that's exactly what I'd expect an ENFP to say"

    I too am drawn to both though I readily admit that my first move is towards objectivity and fairness. Individual exceptions are considered as they need for them is found.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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