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  1. #51
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    But nobody is motivated by the same things. Every individual is unpredictable, and you can't measure everybody by the same standards, not because it is fair or not, just because it's inexact, and you're not getting whole justice.
    Maybe what is justice for me it isn't for another person, but still both 'justices' are... justice.
    If it is impossible to measure everyone by a common standard, then no justice (of an executive kind) is possible. Punitive justice (which is what we are talking about) involves deciding a standard which the majority of society accept as reasonable, establishing that standard in law, and punishing those who violate it. Individual judgments usually take extenuating circumstances into account. T and F don't operate in a vacuum.

  2. #52
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    These aren't mutually exclusive. Find me an F who feels people should be treated unfairly...Find me a T who thinks people are not individuals....

    It might be more accurate to say Ts don't really give as much thought to how individuals are treated as they might, and perhaps Fs give it too much thought.
    Err... that's the point. It's preference. It's not supposed to be exclusive or black and white.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Err... that's the point. It's preference. It's not supposed to be exclusive or black and white.
    Then it's not very helpful, IMO. There are better definitions.

  4. #54
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Then it's not very helpful, IMO. There are better definitions.
    Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    ~Walt Whitman

    True of most people I know. There is no black and white, only shades of colour. Hence your reference points are many and few are so neat as to lie either side of a straight line.

    I think that's the confusing thing that most people come up against. The MBTI doesn't make sense of people. Learning about the MBTI and trying to apply it as a learning process, that makes sense of people.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #55
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    ~Walt Whitman

    True of most people I know. There is no black and white, only shades of colour. Hence your reference points are many and few are so neat as to lie either side of a straight line.

    I think that's the confusing thing that most people come up against. The MBTI doesn't make sense of people. Learning about the MBTI and trying to apply it as a learning process, that makes sense of people.
    MBTI/type theory is all about dichotomies. It is about classifying people according to preferred function(s). You have to start from a position of believing people *can* be typed in a fairly black and white way for it to be a useful or a meaningful tool. If you balk against neat lines and categories, MBTI isn't going to make much sense to you.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Kora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    If it is impossible to measure everyone by a common standard, then no justice (of an executive kind) is possible. Punitive justice (which is what we are talking about) involves deciding a standard which the majority of society accept as reasonable, establishing that standard in law, and punishing those who violate it. Individual judgments usually take extenuating circumstances into account. T and F don't operate in a vacuum.
    I know justice is a system. I'm not saying that justice shouldn't be measured under a common standart, just that if justice doesn't try to search under the surface, it's not exactly justice.
    I mean: Punishing a criminal for his/her crime is justice. Trying to get to the root of criminality and what causes it is whole justice for me. Of course that's almost impossible so I stuck with the punitive system.
    5w4 - Idiosyncratic/Leisurely/Dramatic
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    Punishing a criminal for his/her crime is justice.
    No, it's retribution. To non-punitive types like myself, it seems little more than vindictiveness. The only reason I can see for it is to act as a deterrent for those who lack (for whatever reason) internal mechanisms to behave in a way that is socially acceptable. And it isn't very effective at doing that.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Kora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    No, it's retribution. To non-punitive types like myself, it seems little more than vindictiveness. The only reason I can see for it is to act as a deterrent for those who lack (for whatever reason) internal mechanisms to behave in a way that is socially acceptable. And it isn't very effective at doing that.
    Well that's why I say that if you don't search for what's behind a crime you don't do anything more than punishing a criminal.
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  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    T - Everyone should be treated fairly.
    F - Everyone should be treated as an individual.

    What say you?
    Everyone should be treated as an individual. That's fair.

    If I murder someone the circumstances should be taken into account. All murder is not the same. It's not like treating people as individuals means being soft on them. It means taking into account the situation and taking appropriate action.
    Treating someone individually is not the same as having bias.

  10. #60
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    Well that's why I say that if you don't search for what's behind a crime you don't do anything more than punishing a criminal.
    Not true. There are a lot of other things you can do. Rehabilitation is one. Ignoring it is another.

    When you talk about searching for what's behind a crime you descend into a highly subjective area. We will perhaps never have a model which can perfectly compute cause and effect in human behaviour. We have to work with what we have and our decisions must be pragmatic and for the greater good.
    This would tend towards a generalist approach, rather than an individualistic one.

    But all this is a digression...

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