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Fi, Fe and guilt

Santosha

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,516
MBTI Type
HUMR
Enneagram
6
Instinctual Variant
sx
I view it a bit differently... I think that Fe is so imbued with the emotions and values of it's envionment, that they are taken on and experienced as The Fe users own emotions, or at least to a signifigant degree. So there is no gap, as you describe, between the fear of external judgement while secretly harboring more personalized feelings/values.

However, a gap can certainly occur between Fe values/emotions and Ti's need for inner rational order and logical consistency. And this is where an Fe user might *feel* one way, yet *think* another.
 

Korvinagor

Cyber Strider
Joined
Jan 5, 2017
Messages
762
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I would place shame and guilt, in a separate category from fear of getting caught. Fear of getting caught is in simplistic terms, having no remorse for your actions, or, removing yourself from the deed so to speak. If you feel shame or guilt, you see yourself personally tied to that act and whether it's internal or external, that sense of wrong doing will be present. I am sure there is still some sense of wrong-doing gained from getting caught, but the emphasis is placed elsewhere. I'm literally imagining this in front of me as I play with these concepts and trying to explain it...am I making sense?

Mm, now that I think about it, a fear of getting caught could be used to rationalise one's actions regardless if a person uses Fe or Fi...

And not to worry - you're explaining it very well.
 

Abendrot

one way trip
Joined
Sep 2, 2016
Messages
600
MBTI Type
IntJ
Enneagram
85X
Instinctual Variant
sx
From what I observe about ideological manifestations, at least, on the internet, the idea of shame is increasingly important in Christendom as well, especially given the rise of social media.

I think social media is very important in the recent pivot toward Shame culture in the West, however I don't think this has anything to do with Christianity, as the generation most involved in social media is also the most irreligious. It is generally agreed that there is a strong connection between Christianity and guilt-culture. Although a lot of Christian cultures are shame cultures (eg. Mexico, Spain, South Korea etc.), I can't think of any examples of guilt cultures which are not Christian.

I come from a shame-based culture, but this idea of shame is so deeply inculcated into a fundamental world view from the ground up, that from the outside it probably looks like Fe, especially inferior Fe integrated into a deeply well-thought out logical system (Ti), so differentiating what I was feeling and doing was actually a point of contention. I'm still open to the possibility that what I think and feel is ultimately just that. But, ultimately, attempting to follow societal norms (Fe) results in a deep sense of personal ... what's the opposite of well-being? Especially if Fi doesn't coincide with societal values. Ti-Fe seems a bit more fluid compared to the immutability of Fi based morality.

So you say your feeling function looks like Fe, but is actually Fi. Do you want to elaborate on that with an example? To me, it seems like your case is in agreement with this theory of mine that your Fi has been inverted into Fe because of cultural conditioning, nevertheless you have an intrinsic preference for Fi. Your case reminds me of my father, as he grew up in a shame culture, and I can't figure out if he is ISFJ or ISTJ; his function stack seems to be Si >> Te=Ti=Fe>Fi. Maybe your situation is somewhat similar.
 

Agent Washington

Softserve Ice Cream
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Messages
2,053
I think social media is very important in the recent pivot toward Shame culture in the West, however I don't think this has anything to do with Christianity, as the generation most involved in social media is also the most irreligious. It is generally agreed that there is a strong connection between Christianity and guilt-culture. Although a lot of Christian cultures are shame cultures (eg. Mexico, Spain, South Korea etc.), I can't think of any examples of guilt cultures which are not Christian.

So you say your feeling function looks like Fe, but is actually Fi. Do you want to elaborate on that with an example? To me, it seems like your case is in agreement with this theory of mine that your Fi has been inverted into Fe because of cultural conditioning, nevertheless you have an intrinsic preference for Fi. Your case reminds me of my father, as he grew up in a shame culture, and I can't figure out if he is ISFJ or ISTJ; his function stack seems to be Si >> Te=Ti=Fe>Fi. Maybe your situation is somewhat similar.

Heya. I realise it probably seems a bit strange, but I thought about it a little more - I still haven't come to a full decision, btw, so I'd appreciate any insight - and that is simply that it is entirely possible for somebody to access the functions in their shadow stack. If that was true, then the obligated usage of a shadow stack function will simply appear higher than it should be, and the general determination is how effectively it is used, and how healthily it appears. I've yet to see it, but according to this theory, it would be possible for somebody to, especially with practise, effectively use Fi/Fe. The whole idea of stacks is basically what sort of role a function takes in any healthy individual, I think.

That said, the level that I'm working with right now is mere theory, and in order to validify any of this there'd have to be good neurological studies. (Someone buy me that one book by that neurologist. ;P)

We can also go with the previous theory that you quoted - it would simply be that "Fe" values become a value of Fi, as well. "Shame based societies" usually come with a structural basis, in terms of performativity, in terms of how this is structured on a Ti level (because, ultimately, no moral value comes without a structural theory in place, an overarching logic, whether said logic is flawed or not. It's the function of ideology.) It's not a strict conversion, per se, rather, Ti-Fe ideas get absorbed into Fi, and the breaching of harmonial ideas, for instance, or stuff that deals with the greater good, will result in moral disapproval on part of the individual, and it manifests in Te saying, "We've got to put on a smile and fake it to get this done". From an outside perspective it can a bit hard to tell. But - you know what, my parents are ISFJ and ISTJ respectively. The ISFJ manifests the Fe elements by showing behaviour that is typically caring, and the ISTJ manifests the caring element by less emotional methods of helping. That said, it doesn't always show all the time, due to ISFJ looping/gripping, it just comes down to when they're really at their best in close personal relationships. On the outside, if you don't know any of them well, they'll appear very sociable - the ISTJ more reserved, but still very agreeable and harmonious, so much taht I thought he was ISFP at some point before I realised he was pretty much Si dom and definitely some variant of T. ISFJ appears a bit irrational to my pretty much T mind, but there's a powerful internal logic involved, although it seems that at the end of the day, social consensus (peer group, visual mass media) will probably lead the Ti a bit further due to Si-Fe interaction. If Te and Fe appears to be in usage, it may help to observe his behaviour over a long period of time (from memory), and examine the reasons he acts a certain way.

With this model, it's a bit hard to tell without knowing your father; higher Fe users typically have this outward sort of energy that makes them likeable to other Fe users in particular, and they're far better at social support and exuding warmth than higher Te users will. Both will, assuming they have cognitive or somatic empathy, care about other people. But Fe users seem to react more with affective empathy than cognitive or somatic empathy, and the tendency towards exuding warmth comes from that. And Fi users could also fake that warmth, too, but it's pretty much just for show; it's Te saying "we need this to get things done, let's do it". Fe-Ti would theoretically feel it as opposed to "just" faking it, and that's why it feels genuine.*

*As somebody who likes to update my thoughts when new info shows up, I kinda don't think it's right to give emotional responses value judgment. And all of that is just conjecture.
 
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