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  1. #51
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Ti > Se > Fi/Ne > Te > Si/Ni > Fe

  2. #52
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    These discussions have helped me be able to sort out how all eight roles actually play out in my own processes. I had been struggling with whether I preferred Ti or Fi (as suggested by some others, based largely on how "enthusiastic" I can be at times).
    So the issue I have chosen to use to illustrate, is one that goes back to earliest childhood, and my dom. Si parents remember clearly, and had recently reminded me of, and when I began following the processes used, it fit as a perfect example.

    "Girls First"

    Rule is illogical; makes no sense according to internal standard (Ti)
    Does not have to be done this way; why not boys first, then? (Ne)
    From what I have learned about boys and girls, there is nothing in their essence that necessitates this rule (Si)
    This is a form of discrimination. Nobody wants to be discriminated against (projecting with Fe)

    Stubbornly oppose rule by arguing how things should be done differently. (Te)
    Immobilize with thoughts of how in a disaster when this rule is followed; boys[or men, as on Titanic] will perish. The ramifications of this practice are that girls are more "worthy". (Ni)
    Thus, deceived by the perceived reality of situation (Se)
    Adds to self-destructive strong feelings of powerlessness (Fi)

    I have had to weigh Ti vs Fi preference for so long for two primary reasons:

    1 The strong "gut" feeling involved in "injustices" like this; "strength" of Fi mistaken as possible "preference"
    2 Rules like this appear to be an "external standard" or "group value" (Fe) that I was critical of (as in the E-FP's "immobilizing" or I-FP's "opposing" role). However, "group" values can be very relative, and often contradictory (which is picked out by Ti!) Society on one hand speaks out against discrimination; such as the reverse case; men being favored over women: or also, race; both of which were in the final stages of being overturned (at least officially) during my ealy childhood.

    So-called "chivalry", basically stemmed from the old concept of "woman as weaker vessel", which was also the basis of anti-female discrimination. So it was sort of a counter balance: Man is dominant, but in return, he must treat the woman with additional repect and deference. But even this was being challenged as "chauvinistic" by some feminists.
    So the discarding of all forms of discrimination seemed to be driven by an external value standard based on universal logic, while the old tradition seemed to be driven by an external logic system (organizing people by gender) based on supposed universal values. "Universals" are associated with introverted processes. In any case, external values will naturally take a back seat to internal logic in a young INTP. They will be more associated with negative "shoulds".

    Overall, the process growing up was always logic judgment first; value (how important, etc) later. The first thing I was always complaining of was things like this being illogical, and asking "why?" Then, when the STJ adults would get frustrated and counter back with their hallmark cliché "that's just the way it is!"; THEN the strong feelings of personal devaluation (powerlessness) would come. A hero or parent use of Fi would probably just evaluate the situation and determine that it's not really important; not anything to get annoyed about; nothing is really lost, and (as I knew deep down inside), if there was a disaster, they would not take the time to separate out the girls and abandon the boys, but try to get everyone out as fast as they could. This was the aspect of Fi that I realized I was not in touch with, and hence I turned from the NFP suggestion others had given, back to my initial choice of INTP a few months ago. Fi is only good like that when all else fails, and it then transforms the negative thought pattern with an evaluation of importance.

    Clearly, my initial evaluations was based all on logic. And the logic was based on an internal standard, which was often criticized heavily in an environment that believed that logic must be based on external standards to have any credibility (and only self-worth, ethics, importance, etc. should be based on an internal standard). This would then also increase my Te use in defense.

    This also seems to match the out of place strengths picked up by the CP test: Ne 47.2 Ti 44.3 Si 37.8 Fi 30.9 Te 27.7 Fe 21.7 Se 19 Ni 10.6

    I scored highest on Ne because I had marked a few questions "exactly me"; where I did not on Ti. This is because I am more aware of Ne use; partly because it is both extraverted; and a perception function (which tend to be easier to detect than the true nature of the standards we judge by).
    Also, because Ti is probably simply not as strong as it might be in others who do score with it as the strongest. But otherwise, the internal logic standard clearly comes first, and type is all about the "preference".
    Si falls in place
    Fi and Te above Fe: because Fe does not even develop fully until midlife; but again, circumstances necessitated internal value standards and external logic becoming stronger; mostly in a defensive stance. As we see here and especially on INTPc, most INTPs have both Fi and Te as stronger than Fe. Still, Fe is what is aspired to; while Te and Fi are more negative (yet at least one INTP over there is claiming his Fi is good, Fe is negative only).
    Se over Ni; again; (a few Ni questions marked "not me"); because an extraverted function being more noticeable than an introverted one; plus Se (external concrete perception; here and now focused) being easier to comprehend than Ni (internal abstract perception; future focus) anyway.
    good view on the functions and how they work together.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  3. #53
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    well i assume ur basing your functions off of a test. first off i cant debate the accuracy of tests. tests are flawed by ur environment and the nature of tests in general. once again Te is not will power. Fi and Ti are very different but they both work in the same way.

    now lets assume u are correct and im just some bumbling fool. instead of trying to poke holes in what im saying and starting a big semantics debate, expain how ur functions all work together in a smooth and fluid way. if u do not believe that they work together and are different in function from type to type then just say so. i will shut up promptly after lol

    also to get Ti u would mix Si and Te. also T and F arent functions. and Te is completely different in an ENFP then an ENTJ for example.

    chill guys its just a debate. and a function definition sticky would be awsome...if well done
    i'm not basing this off a test, i know the functions. i have a decent guess of where they lie. plus, most of the orders i talked about is in the literature.

    i did not say you were a bumbling fool, i don't do ad homenim. i want to have a good view of how the functions work together, but that's exactly why i want to see all my functions and their respective strength. that's why i made the thread in the first place.

    Te IS will power in a very logical, results based sense. there IS a sticky for all the functions, it's right here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-tutorial.html. it even gives the description of Te, which i was pretty much quoting directly.

    Ti = Si + Te also makes little sense in my case. my Ti really isn't that bad. Si and Te is both bad.

    last but not least, i have a feeling that you think i'm destroying my keyboard in rage. i'm not. i'm just more dogmatic than the standard F.

  4. #54
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Scratch what I had before.
    In my analysis, I realize a mistake I made in ordering the functions.
    There really is no way of differentiating between an Introverted type and an Extraverted type that way. So I decided that Fi must be up in front.

    Fi/Ne/Ti/Ni/Se/Fe/Si/Te

    This is under the impression that my preference for iNtuition is strongest, followed by Perceiving, followed by Introversion, and then Feeling. As a result, my Fi, Ne, Ti, and Ni all are fairly strong- the question was figuring out who was in charge.

    Here is what the 'opposite' INFP would like in terms of cognitive functions.
    Fi/Ni/Ti/(Ne=Si)/Fe/Se/Te

    The preference for Feeling would be so strong that Fi would be completely in charge. Te would hardly be used.
    The difference here is that Fi is very strong and Te is very weak. The other six functions are used about equally (neither strongly nor weakly) while in my profile, there are four clear winners.

    A strong preference for Introversion and a weak preference for Intuition and Perceiving for the 'opposite' INFP allow for Si and Ne to be equally strong- even though Ne is normally an Auxiliary function for the INFP. It is still the winner in terms of extraverted functions and thus INFP is still valid for this person.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  5. #55
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    i'm not basing this off a test, i know the functions. i have a decent guess of where they lie. plus, most of the orders i talked about is in the literature.

    i did not say you were a bumbling fool, i don't do ad homenim. i want to have a good view of how the functions work together, but that's exactly why i want to see all my functions and their respective strength. that's why i made the thread in the first place.

    Te IS will power in a very logical, results based sense. there IS a sticky for all the functions, it's right here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-tutorial.html. it even gives the description of Te, which i was pretty much quoting directly.

    Ti = Si + Te also makes little sense in my case. my Ti really isn't that bad. Si and Te is both bad.

    last but not least, i have a feeling that you think i'm destroying my keyboard in rage. i'm not. i'm just more dogmatic than the standard F.
    nahhh i dont think your destroying your keyboard in rage dude...its cool. and i called myself a bumbling fool, which many times, i often am. i will hold true to what i believe because (in the nicest way possible) I dont understand how functions could possibly NOT have an orientation, and think you are wrong. you might be right though, and thus, an explanation of how a) your functions work as only individual entities b) how your functions work as a team or c) (my belief) define the functions individually (which is pointless because we all already know what they are) and how they work together

    the only reason i would like an explanations is because ive been on way to many threads where people make up little function theories that on paper look nice, but have no application to the real world, and generally lack a full explaination

    if your side makes complete sense i will admit you are right, i have no problem with being wrong, it happens all to often, especially when i get a little over-zealous

    PS- lets assume Te is what you say it is (and i suppose that it is true in an EXTREMELY summed up version), Te is still used very differently between ENFPs and ENTJs or ESFPs and ESTJs. This is why I think orientation of functions is so important. Lets say, according to your theory, that my (ENFP) functions are Te, xx, xx, xx and an ENTJs functions are as i defined them. would this mean that we both use Te in the same way. if so, what is differentiating me from being an ENTJ? true, i use Te, but i use it more to keep my other first two functions working together to get jobs accomplished. I believe that sure, functions are individual entities but on a team. they must work together and there is a hierarchy to how the team functions (kind of like captains and assistant captains etc...idk i dont play team sports lol).
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  6. #56
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    obviously functions do function together, ad different people will use them in different ways. however, i think it can be simplified. Ne is my dominant function, Fi is me secondary. therefore, i can analyze the strengths of my other functions in terms of it.

    i have weak Si, Si is a function i don't really want to develop. why? because it is a polar opposite to Ne. i like being creative, i i like seeing possibilities. i don't want to see the world as a series of norms.

    here's another example. i have weak Te because the actual doing of a project is not as fun as the planning. my Ne is focused on new and fresh ideas, not the product itself. my Fi tells me that i should stay true to this. so, my Te can be weak in terms of dominant functions. i can go on, but you get my drift.

  7. #57
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    ok thats fine (though i think the conditioning of your/our other functions is generally healthy, and (im going to get flack for this) lends to emotional development/intelligence (this might not be true, just a personal thing ive noticed)). now the way your explaining Si is in terms of an ISTJ or ISFJ where Si is their dominant function. like you (and i) stated above, the functions are used differently between each type. Si in an ENFP will have a completely different function then in an ISTJ and thus defining Si as defined in an ISTJ or ISFJ as a function of an ENFP is a little too general. it will have similar attributes of an ISXJ but it is still used very differently. all this to say it will not stunt your creativity, but will (with use of Te) give it grounding and foundation. having structure will let your ideas attach to something and thus thrive. allllllll of this to say Si is unconscious so its not like you have much of a choice if it develops or not lol (its not something you can control like Ne or Fi). functions will NEVER hurt you or stunt your creativity. Te will pull your ideas together and lend them some order. with all your ideas together you can then see how they all relate (Ne) and come up with other new ideas based on these ideas. you can continually add more ideas together and build on old ideas. Te is a very very very important function to an ENFP in terms of coming up with ideas (or anything really). you can come up with all the ideas in the world but if your ideas dont have grounding or application, then who gives, they are just ideas floating around doing nothing, but if you pull them together you may actually be able to make something.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  8. #58
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yeah, The "preferred" (hero, parent) functions generally are more "serious" (especially something like Si or Te), while the next pair tend to be less serious. Like the tertiary being "relief". So my Si is even a step above an EN-P's, and it is still more associated with "distraction" from life than the way the SJ's use it. Their "rigid" use of it gets on my nerves as well. Likewise, Te in an E-FP is quite different than in a TJ. The types are in some respects diametrically opposite, with the TJ's generally the most serious, and the FP's, the least so.

    So whenever your Si fully develops, it will be more like mine, where it is used for nostalgia and such, plus you'll get better at remembering details as well. (thus it will work well with your Te). Its use should be getting more positive, not more negative, because it is when younger that the aspirational function is more negative, projecting "shoulds", fears, etc. on others.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  9. #59
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yeah, The "preferred" (hero, parent) functions generally are more "serious" (especially something like Si or Te), while the next pair tend to be less serious. Like the tertiary being "relief". So my Si is even a step above an EN-P's, and it is still more associated with "distraction" from life than the way the SJ's use it. Their "rigid" use of it gets on my nerves as well. Likewise, Te in an E-FP is quite different than in a TJ. The types are in some respects diametrically opposite, with the TJ's generally the most serious, and the FP's, the least so.

    So whenever your Si fully develops, it will be more like mine, where it is used for nostalgia and such, plus you'll get better at remembering details as well. (thus it will work well with your Te). Its use should be getting more positive, not more negative, because it is when younger that the aspirational function is more negative, projecting "shoulds", fears, etc. on others.
    very true. developing the functions is never a bad thing. well said sir. this is what i mean by explaining each aspect of the functions. it is why function orientation is so important.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  10. #60
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Ni, Fe, Ti, Se, Ne, Fi, Te, Si

    Just the same as the eight function model predicts. Si is DEFINITELY my weakest function. If dominant Si is good at remembering and recalling facts and information, then 8th position Si is good at the exact opposite: forgetting things! It is the source of my considerable absent-mindedness. I have been know to "forget" to do the most basic sensing-type functions:

    Eating
    Sleeping
    Going home from work at a sensible time
    Going to the toilet

    and many others!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

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    With no problems.

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