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  1. #41
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    whoever keeps giving my threads 1 star, please go kill yourself.
    no thanks lol others can rate the thread according to how they view it and it may go up. considering it hasn't, i wouldn't complain about the one star, at least your getting input.

    and dissonance you make some good points. I still believe that the order is predefined. like I said, individual functions are somewhat pointless, and I could come up with literally hundreds of logical but pointless systems that i could wallow (is that the right word?) in, in which case i would just ignore functions altogether if that were true. if someone can explain how the functions work together if it looks something like Ti, Ni, Se, Fe (idk? lol) i will gladly listen. if it cant be explained then im assuming everyone believes that functions are individual entities in which case there is no point debating the issue and I will leave and stop annoying all of you lol.
    I don't think it makes sense to call Se and Si different functions since neither of them seem to be theoretically possible. I'd rather call it sensing and include a spectrum of introversion to extroversion.
    im pretty sure Se means extroverted sensing and Si means introverted sensing. wouldn't that be sensing and including a spectrum?

    if you think your 4 functions are your top 4 functions i simply CANNOT agree, nor do i think the literature ever says this. you seriously telling me that for an ENFP your Te will be higher than your Fe? Te is my tertiary function isn't it? yet will power is especially bad with us ENFP's.
    your still looking at it like individual entities. Te will not manifest itself in an ENFP then say an ENTJ. Its more used to "translate" between Ne and Fi. Si would back it up in an off hand way. if your looking at functions as individual entities, an ENFP doesn't have Fe but Fi. If your looking at it as a team, an ENFP has every function but some are synthetically created by your first 4 main functions. to make Fe, it would be a mix of Ne and FI. etc.

    EDIT:

    Te isn't will power. and i dont think will power is bad with us ENFPs. just look at this debate.

    i WILL NOT accept that they are my top 4 functions because they are obviously not. Te and Si are strong suits of an ENFP? give me a break.
    thats why they call them "opinions" ... chill man. and they obviously are not for what reason?

    Don't take that test seriously. Learn the functions themselves.
    Thats what I like to hear
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  2. #42
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    mlittrell, i believe that it is a mistake to call the 'other' processes just a mix of your main ones. i'll take my Ti for example. ffor my type, according to your theory i would need to combine my Fi and Te to get my TI. however, my Te really isn't all that good but my Ti is. i don't really see how my crappy Te can create decent Ti when combined with a good Fi.

    1. as i said, my Te is weak and hence i find it weird that it can be a good ingredient for good Ti.

    2. F and T are opposite functions, therefore i find it odd that a good Fi can manifest itself smoothly into Ti.

    about the Te function, it is will power of sorts. it's your 'get off your lazy ass' function and not simply thinking extrovertedly (saying all your thoughts) as one may assume. i've spoke to many ENFP's about this and pretty much all of them agree that they have trouble actually doing the stuff. why do you think we don't like finishing projects? why do we procrastinate as much as we do. Te is pretty much the J function. coincidentally, the types with Te as their primary or secondary function are all J's (ESTJ's and ENTJ's for primary, ISTJ's and INTJ's for secondary).

  3. #43
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Star rating fixed..

    Btw why would this function order be any different to the preference strengths that people display? Surely there is a correlation between which functions appear first and the observability of them. Ergo I may well use Fe quite a lot but if I hide it well then won't my function order according to those tests be wrong?

    I agree with mlittrell that an individual function means little without context (I'd never really disagree with that approach) but I've seen too many people with too much variance in their results to believe that people can be accurately typed from the function order that the current slew of tests gives out.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #44
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Mine are all screwed up. I've got Te and Ti equal in second place after the mighty Ne, and Fi as my inferior rather than Si, and well, the rest is in my signature. I was described by the guy who assessed me as "an ENTP who can flip a switch and become an ENTJ in certain conditions"
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #45
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I'm going to make a function definition thread. Jeez.

  6. #46
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    I think I'll post some religious texts coz they're true and u must believe them.

  7. #47
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    mlittrell, i believe that it is a mistake to call the 'other' processes just a mix of your main ones. i'll take my Ti for example. ffor my type, according to your theory i would need to combine my Fi and Te to get my TI. however, my Te really isn't all that good but my Ti is. i don't really see how my crappy Te can create decent Ti when combined with a good Fi.

    1. as i said, my Te is weak and hence i find it weird that it can be a good ingredient for good Ti.

    2. F and T are opposite functions, therefore i find it odd that a good Fi can manifest itself smoothly into Ti.

    about the Te function, it is will power of sorts. it's your 'get off your lazy ass' function and not simply thinking extrovertedly (saying all your thoughts) as one may assume. i've spoke to many ENFP's about this and pretty much all of them agree that they have trouble actually doing the stuff. why do you think we don't like finishing projects? why do we procrastinate as much as we do. Te is pretty much the J function. coincidentally, the types with Te as their primary or secondary function are all J's (ESTJ's and ENTJ's for primary, ISTJ's and INTJ's for secondary).
    well i assume ur basing your functions off of a test. first off i cant debate the accuracy of tests. tests are flawed by ur environment and the nature of tests in general. once again Te is not will power. Fi and Ti are very different but they both work in the same way.

    now lets assume u are correct and im just some bumbling fool. instead of trying to poke holes in what im saying and starting a big semantics debate, expain how ur functions all work together in a smooth and fluid way. if u do not believe that they work together and are different in function from type to type then just say so. i will shut up promptly after lol

    also to get Ti u would mix Si and Te. also T and F arent functions. and Te is completely different in an ENFP then an ENTJ for example.

    chill guys its just a debate. and a function definition sticky would be awsome...if well done
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  8. #48
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    As far as cognitive processes go, I tend to score highest in Te and Se, then equally well in Ni and Ti, then I have all the others with Si as lowest.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #49
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I took some time to really think about the strengths of my functions.
    I think I'm an INFP based on this function order.

    Ne/Fi/Ti/Ni/Se/Fe/Te/Si

    Even though Ne is stronger than Fi, overall, I use a lot more introverted functions than extraverted ones and as a result- prefer Introversion over Extraversion. It is fairly obvious that I prefer Intuition over Sensing from this order. Thinking is just right behind Feeling but I think Fi>Ti and Fe>Te. However, Fi and Ti are the strongest of the four. Finally, three of my top eight are 'perceiver functions' with Se at #5.

    Hence, INFP.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  10. #50
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    These discussions have helped me be able to sort out how all eight roles actually play out in my own processes. I had been struggling with whether I preferred Ti or Fi (as suggested by some others, based largely on how "enthusiastic" I can be at times).
    So the issue I have chosen to use to illustrate, is one that goes back to earliest childhood, and my dom. Si parents remember clearly, and had recently reminded me of, and when I began following the processes used, it fit as a perfect example.

    "Girls First"

    Rule is illogical; makes no sense according to internal standard (Ti)
    Does not have to be done this way; why not boys first, then? (Ne)
    From what I have learned about boys and girls, there is nothing in their essence that necessitates this rule (Si)
    This is a form of discrimination. Nobody wants to be discriminated against (projecting with Fe)

    Stubbornly oppose rule by arguing how things should be done differently. (Te)
    Immobilize with thoughts of how in a disaster when this rule is followed; boys[or men, as on Titanic] will perish. The ramifications of this practice are that girls are more "worthy". (Ni)
    Thus, deceived by the perceived reality of situation (Se)
    Adds to self-destructive strong feelings of powerlessness (Fi)

    I have had to weigh Ti vs Fi preference for so long for two primary reasons:

    1 The strong "gut" feeling involved in "injustices" like this; "strength" of Fi mistaken as possible "preference"
    2 Rules like this appear to be an "external standard" or "group value" (Fe) that I was critical of (as in the E-FP's "immobilizing" or I-FP's "opposing" role). However, "group" values can be very relative, and often contradictory (which is picked out by Ti!) Society on one hand speaks out against discrimination; such as the reverse case; men being favored over women: or also, race; both of which were in the final stages of being overturned (at least officially) during my ealy childhood.

    So-called "chivalry", basically stemmed from the old concept of "woman as weaker vessel", which was also the basis of anti-female discrimination. So it was sort of a counter balance: Man is dominant, but in return, he must treat the woman with additional repect and deference. But even this was being challenged as "chauvinistic" by some feminists.
    So the discarding of all forms of discrimination seemed to be driven by an external value standard based on universal logic, while the old tradition seemed to be driven by an external logic system (organizing people by gender) based on supposed universal values. "Universals" are associated with introverted processes. In any case, external values will naturally take a back seat to internal logic in a young INTP. They will be more associated with negative "shoulds".

    Overall, the process growing up was always logic judgment first; value (how important, etc) later. The first thing I was always complaining of was things like this being illogical, and asking "why?" Then, when the STJ adults would get frustrated and counter back with their hallmark clich "that's just the way it is!"; THEN the strong feelings of personal devaluation (powerlessness) would come. A hero or parent use of Fi would probably just evaluate the situation and determine that it's not really important; not anything to get annoyed about; nothing is really lost, and (as I knew deep down inside), if there was a disaster, they would not take the time to separate out the girls and abandon the boys, but try to get everyone out as fast as they could. This was the aspect of Fi that I realized I was not in touch with, and hence I turned from the NFP suggestion others had given, back to my initial choice of INTP a few months ago. Fi is only good like that when all else fails, and it then transforms the negative thought pattern with an evaluation of importance.

    Clearly, my initial evaluations was based all on logic. And the logic was based on an internal standard, which was often criticized heavily in an environment that believed that logic must be based on external standards to have any credibility (and only self-worth, ethics, importance, etc. should be based on an internal standard). This would then also increase my Te use in defense.

    This also seems to match the out of place strengths picked up by the CP test: Ne 47.2 Ti 44.3 Si 37.8 Fi 30.9 Te 27.7 Fe 21.7 Se 19 Ni 10.6

    I scored highest on Ne because I had marked a few questions "exactly me"; where I did not on Ti. This is because I am more aware of Ne use; partly because it is both extraverted; and a perception function (which tend to be easier to detect than the true nature of the standards we judge by).
    Also, because Ti is probably simply not as strong as it might be in others who do score with it as the strongest. But otherwise, the internal logic standard clearly comes first, and type is all about the "preference".
    Si falls in place
    Fi and Te above Fe: because Fe does not even develop fully until midlife; but again, circumstances necessitated internal value standards and external logic becoming stronger; mostly in a defensive stance. As we see here and especially on INTPc, most INTPs have both Fi and Te as stronger than Fe. Still, Fe is what is aspired to; while Te and Fi are more negative (yet at least one INTP over there is claiming his Fi is good, Fe is negative only).
    Se over Ni; again; (a few Ni questions marked "not me"); because an extraverted function being more noticeable than an introverted one; plus Se (external concrete perception; here and now focused) being easier to comprehend than Ni (internal abstract perception; future focus) anyway.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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