What the therapists said...

[The Ü™]

Is that something you go out of your way looking for or is it just something you confront when you stumble over it in the course of your day?

In your experience are the problems that result from upsetting people an acceptable price to pay for feeling smarter than others?

If people can present a reasonable argument for a particular norm, are you then willing to play along, even if you don't personally find value in the norm?

To answer all three questions: Yes.

In regards to norms, though, if the issue is something related to morality, then I cannot reason, because the very nature of morality is subjective. For example, people will say that murder is wrong, but it's really because (A) it's illegal and (B) because it goes against religious beliefs. Hence, there is no rationale to justify that. I always felt that following the rules was the only justifiable answer to what is right and wrong, and different cultures have different perspectives. I don't think there is a natural law for anything except for science.

The thing is, also, that my youth consisted of being bullied and stuff that I eventually decided to isolate myself from people and repress desires for interaction, perhaps because I want to challenge society's views on the importance of friendship. When I interact with people, it's usually of necessity rather than desire.

 

[cafe]

To answer all three questions: Yes.

In regards to norms, though, if the issue is something related to morality, then I cannot reason, because the very nature of morality is subjective. For example, people will say that murder is wrong, but it's really because (A) it's illegal and (B) because it goes against religious beliefs. Hence, there is no rationale to justify that. I always felt that following the rules was the only justifiable answer to what is right and wrong, and different cultures have different perspectives. I don't think there is a natural law for anything except for science.

The thing is, also, that my youth consisted of being bullied and stuff that I eventually decided to isolate myself from people and repress desires for interaction, perhaps because I want to challenge society's views on the importance of friendship. When I interact with people, it's usually of necessity rather than desire.

I think you are arguing against science here, but okay.

 

[ptgatsby]

I think you are arguing against science here, but okay.

Heh, I saw it as a very INTJ answer. The SJ answer for rule-following moral standards is far more ethnocentric - the NJ answer is the same, but without the ethnocentric view.

I have a similar view, but expanded to include historical context. I see the evolution of morality through time and location and believe that the our immediate sense of morality is invariably flawed... Same reason why, unlike the rule view (very NP), morality cannot be solidly codified for any length of time.

 

[cafe]

Heh, I saw it as a very INTJ answer. The SJ answer for rule-following moral standards is far more ethnocentric - the NJ answer is the same, but without the ethnocentric view.

I have a similar view, but expanded to include historical context. I see the evolution of morality through time and location and believe that the our immediate sense of morality is invariably flawed... Same reason why, unlike the rule view (very NP), morality cannot be solidly codified for any length of time.

I see it as an very INTJ answer, too. I just don't think is particularly pragmatic or that it takes into account the social nature of our species.

 

[ptgatsby]

I see it as an very INTJ answer, too. I just don't think is particularly pragmatic or that it takes into account the social nature of our species.

Oh, I agree. I meant that it is a very two dimensional view - a single type dimension being expressed. But we all tend to do that to some degree, and I think even he realizes this.

 

[The Ü™]

I'm just musing over the prospect that maybe humans don't really want or have to be a social species, but from a very young age, a person's mind is influenced with exposure to this sort of thinking. It's society that encourages companionship, and so it becomes an uncontrollable addiction. Eventually, it becomes so powerful that to be deprived of it leads to withdrawal symptoms which could lead to poor health and even death, like a drug.

I viewed friendships as something like a drug, where you'll die with it, but you'll die from withdrawal effects. The point I was making is that to not even start or even be exposed to relationships, may have the same kind of effect as abstinence from drugs and alcohol.

 

[cafe]

I'm just musing over the prospect that maybe humans don't really want or have to be a social species, but from a very young age, a person's mind is influenced with exposure to this sort of thinking. It's society that encourages companionship, and so it becomes an uncontrollable addiction. Eventually, it becomes so powerful that to be deprived of it leads to withdrawal symptoms which could lead to poor health and even death, like a drug.

I viewed friendships as something like a drug, where you'll die with it, but you'll die from withdrawal effects. The point I was making is that to not even start or even be exposed to relationships, may have the same kind of effect as abstinence from drugs and alcohol.

You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?

 

[Wolf]

You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?

We need that because we're mammals. Mammal offspring die without their female parent.

 

[The Ü™]

You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?

My mother told me that when I was a baby, I never liked being held or touched.

 

[Wolf]

My mother told me that when I was a baby, I never liked being held or touched.

Are you autistic?

 

[The Ü™]

Are you autistic?

Yes. Asperger's syndrome.

 

[cafe]

We need that because we're mammals. Mammal offspring die without their female parent.

Even when they are properly fed and otherwise cared for lack of touch, etc. has a very negative effect. I guess I'm aware of this because I'm a mother?

 

[Totenkindly]

You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?

Yes, based on experiments done even 40+ years ago, it's pretty clear that infants need maternal nurturing and touch in order to develop properly -- not just to learn how to interact, but to fully develop and thrive.

There's also the language window -- missing interaction with human beings during the 2-4 year slot impacts not only communication ability later in life (if not derailing it completely) but also limits the ability to think in complex coherent terms.

[We can all participate on this forum today only because of the human beings we learned language from as children.]

Object Relations theory also tracks how children develop their sense of self and autonomy based on the core relationships in their lives (parental figures).

Like it or not, every human being is dependent at least at an early age on other human beings, if we wish to reach our full potential. Only later can we become autonomous... but the relationships have already been established.

 

[cafe]

My mother told me that when I was a baby, I never liked being held or touched.

My oldest daughter, also an INTJ, did not, and still does not, like being touched. Nursing her hurt because she wanted to be as far away from me as she physically could and still eat. Very bad positioning. Ouch!

I don't believe she is on the spectrum, though it's possible. Two of my children are. Neither of them showed any aversion to touch, though. It kind of threw me off.

 

[Wolf]

Even when they are properly fed and otherwise cared for lack of touch, etc. has a very negative effect. I guess I'm aware of this because I'm a mother?

He could be right, it might be addictive. Some of us may substitute our lack of physical human interaction with online interaction and pets, because we're addicted to human interaction. Many can do fair alone, but they are so addicted that they want human companionship.

 

[The Ü™]

Yes, based on experiments done even 40+ years ago, it's pretty clear that infants need maternal nurturing and touch in order to develop properly -- not just to learn how to interact, but to fully develop and thrive.

There's also the language window -- missing interaction with human beings during the 2-4 year slot impacts not only communication ability later in life (if not derailing it completely) but also limits the ability to think in complex coherent terms.

[We can all participate on this forum today only because of the human beings we learned language from as children.]

Object Relations theory also tracks how children develop their sense of self and autonomy based on the core relationships in their lives (parental figures).

Like it or not, every human being is dependent at least at an early age on other human beings, if we wish to reach our full potential. Only later can we become autonomous... but the relationships have already been established.

Well, a certain dependency to learn is essential to survival, yes, but I don't see personal relationships as being a requirement. We could also increase our survival by using others -- a business partner, sorta -- but Feeling types seem to find this to be cruel. However, I don't think a deep emotional connection is essential. I don't really think emotions are something that should be valued.

 

[rivercrow]

I've never been a cuddler. My mother and sister find this funny and are always hugging on me against my will. I make broad exceptions for people I feel genuine affection for--which surprises a lot of people when I do. Freely given with respect is a big deal with me.

I recall the birth process and had nightmares and waking terrors about it for years. I was an induced birth and there've been some studies on effects of induced birth on kids.

I'm not on the Aspie/Autism spectrum, altho my sister once decided the whole family was. (My sister has some other peculiar ideas.)

 

[The Ü™]

He could be right, it might be addictive. Some of us may substitute our lack of physical human interaction with online interaction and pets, because we're addicted to human interaction. Many can do fair alone, but they are so addicted that they want human companionship.

I think that material possessions could also increase survival rate. People do seem to have a connection with material things in the same way they do with people.

Also, having a lot of money provides a sense of psychological security, which could ease stress, thereby also increasing one's own life span.

 

[The Ü™]

I've never been a cuddler. My mother and sister find this funny and are always hugging on me against my will. I make broad exceptions for people I feel genuine affection for--which surprises a lot of people when I do. Freely given with respect is a big deal with me.

I recall the birth process and had nightmares and waking terrors about it for years. I was an induced birth and there's been some studies on effects of induced birth on kids.

I'm not on the Aspie/Autism spectrum, altho my sister once decided the whole family was. (My sister has some other peculiar ideas.)

Maybe that's because your sister is from Uranus!

 

[cafe]

I've never been a cuddler. My mother and sister find this funny and are always hugging on me against my will. I make broad exceptions for people I feel genuine affection for--which surprises a lot of people when I do. Freely given with respect is a big deal with me.

I recall the birth process and had nightmares and waking terrors about it for years. I was an induced birth and there's been some studies on effects of induced birth on kids.

I'm not on the Aspie/Autism spectrum, altho my sister once decided the whole family was. (My sister has some other peculiar ideas.)

I don't really like being touched other than by my partner and my children up to a certain age. I don't know how I was when I was little. No one ever said anything about it.

I am very respectful of my daughter's dislike of being touched. I don't see it as being different than any other preference. I wouldn't like it if someone tried to pour Dr. Pepper down my throat, why should I touch somebody that doesn't want to be touched?