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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Is that something you go out of your way looking for or is it just something you confront when you stumble over it in the course of your day?

    In your experience are the problems that result from upsetting people an acceptable price to pay for feeling smarter than others?

    If people can present a reasonable argument for a particular norm, are you then willing to play along, even if you don't personally find value in the norm?
    To answer all three questions: Yes.

    In regards to norms, though, if the issue is something related to morality, then I cannot reason, because the very nature of morality is subjective. For example, people will say that murder is wrong, but it's really because (A) it's illegal and (B) because it goes against religious beliefs. Hence, there is no rationale to justify that. I always felt that following the rules was the only justifiable answer to what is right and wrong, and different cultures have different perspectives. I don't think there is a natural law for anything except for science.

    The thing is, also, that my youth consisted of being bullied and stuff that I eventually decided to isolate myself from people and repress desires for interaction, perhaps because I want to challenge society's views on the importance of friendship. When I interact with people, it's usually of necessity rather than desire.

  2. #22
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    To answer all three questions: Yes.

    In regards to norms, though, if the issue is something related to morality, then I cannot reason, because the very nature of morality is subjective. For example, people will say that murder is wrong, but it's really because (A) it's illegal and (B) because it goes against religious beliefs. Hence, there is no rationale to justify that. I always felt that following the rules was the only justifiable answer to what is right and wrong, and different cultures have different perspectives. I don't think there is a natural law for anything except for science.

    The thing is, also, that my youth consisted of being bullied and stuff that I eventually decided to isolate myself from people and repress desires for interaction, perhaps because I want to challenge society's views on the importance of friendship. When I interact with people, it's usually of necessity rather than desire.
    I think you are arguing against science here, but okay.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think you are arguing against science here, but okay.
    Heh, I saw it as a very INTJ answer. The SJ answer for rule-following moral standards is far more ethnocentric - the NJ answer is the same, but without the ethnocentric view.

    I have a similar view, but expanded to include historical context. I see the evolution of morality through time and location and believe that the our immediate sense of morality is invariably flawed... Same reason why, unlike the rule view (very NP), morality cannot be solidly codified for any length of time.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Heh, I saw it as a very INTJ answer. The SJ answer for rule-following moral standards is far more ethnocentric - the NJ answer is the same, but without the ethnocentric view.

    I have a similar view, but expanded to include historical context. I see the evolution of morality through time and location and believe that the our immediate sense of morality is invariably flawed... Same reason why, unlike the rule view (very NP), morality cannot be solidly codified for any length of time.
    I see it as an very INTJ answer, too. I just don't think is particularly pragmatic or that it takes into account the social nature of our species.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I see it as an very INTJ answer, too. I just don't think is particularly pragmatic or that it takes into account the social nature of our species.
    Oh, I agree. I meant that it is a very two dimensional view - a single type dimension being expressed. But we all tend to do that to some degree, and I think even he realizes this.

  6. #26
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    I'm just musing over the prospect that maybe humans don't really want or have to be a social species, but from a very young age, a person's mind is influenced with exposure to this sort of thinking. It's society that encourages companionship, and so it becomes an uncontrollable addiction. Eventually, it becomes so powerful that to be deprived of it leads to withdrawal symptoms which could lead to poor health and even death, like a drug.

    I viewed friendships as something like a drug, where you'll die with it, but you'll die from withdrawal effects. The point I was making is that to not even start or even be exposed to relationships, may have the same kind of effect as abstinence from drugs and alcohol.

  7. #27
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I'm just musing over the prospect that maybe humans don't really want or have to be a social species, but from a very young age, a person's mind is influenced with exposure to this sort of thinking. It's society that encourages companionship, and so it becomes an uncontrollable addiction. Eventually, it becomes so powerful that to be deprived of it leads to withdrawal symptoms which could lead to poor health and even death, like a drug.

    I viewed friendships as something like a drug, where you'll die with it, but you'll die from withdrawal effects. The point I was making is that to not even start or even be exposed to relationships, may have the same kind of effect as abstinence from drugs and alcohol.
    You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?
    We need that because we're mammals. Mammal offspring die without their female parent.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You don't think the negative health effects on infants of human and other primate species when they are denied normal maternal touch and nurturing indicates any kind of innate need for social interaction?
    My mother told me that when I was a baby, I never liked being held or touched.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    My mother told me that when I was a baby, I never liked being held or touched.
    Are you autistic?
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

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