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[Fe] How can I use Fe instead of Fi?

Myths Of Zephyr

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Before anything else, I'd like to clear up that I love and appreciate Fi. Also, I know I should accept myself for who I am and develop my own functions blahblahblah.... BUT it'd be nice to see the world a lil' differently than I usually see it.

Now moving on, How do I develop Fe? You Fe users often have such kind voices and facial expressions. Also, you guys apparently recognize other people's emotions without relating it back to your own. There was also something else about focusing on external values instead of internal ones. Personally, I'm too monotone and find it hard to express any feeling on my face. I'd also like to be able to make the people around me feel at ease and be able to recognize the mood or atmosphere of the group. Preferably, it'd be nice to have examples that show it in action. In the examples, if you can compare it to how Fi would respond, it'd be all the more helpful. So to end with, how can I, a Fi-dom, use Fe instead?
 

Forever

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You just pretend to be nice. :shrug: Fe is more of a skill than it is necessarily a specific moral view.

People say I have a kind voice and everything but yet the friends I make are very superficial.


I think INFJ's are considered both warm in and out is because those who get to know them, make the INFJ be warm. Not necessarily that the INFJ was a burning hot radiation of love in the first place. I feel quite desolate on the inside. But yet emotions from outer events tell me how to react.
 

Norrsken

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Read up on some Dale Carnegie, son.
 

OrangeAppled

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You don't "use" these things. Fe is a mental attitude... it is a matter of regarding external "definitions" for value as true, and it looks to the external to explain (er justify) individual/personal values. Harmony is a way of validating - others share the value, making it truer (err...). It is very pragmatic in this sense - if there is no agreed upon value, then an asserted value is arbitrary, making it rather useless for, er, personal transactions, or valueless.

To mimic this mindset, try interpreting meaning, worth, etc, in relation to some external context. This doesn't mean blindly adopting values - it means gauging importance in terms of how things relate to others, to something outside oneself. Fi mentality is very contextual too, but instead of a broad context, it uses a narrow one - that of the individual, and not the individual interpreting necessarily (aka YOU), but the individual expressing as well. Fe is more general than that.

A way to grasp it is comparing it to money. If we all use the same money, it makes transactions easier because we have an agreed upon system and understand what stands for what value, as opposed to arbitrarily assigning value and having to constantly explain that this blue paper means 5. Language and culture are other great metaphors for Fe, although they are not solely Fe or the definition of Fe.

So basically - think of the wider, "agreed upon" meaning for things, even if you know it often is just a symbol or stand-in for worth (ie "how are you?" not really being a deep personal interest in your well-being, but a polite, casual greeting that acknowledges your existence so you don't feel totally insignificant).

Fe mentality is basically seeking validation in terms of consensus or adjusting itself a bit to fit the consensus. The individual still has their own preferences and emotions, but they will be adjusted to create accord with something outside them, which then validates them. Yes, this does cause a repression and/or tendency to corral others into the same opinion.

Not very flattering, I know.... :shrug:
 

Yama

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Not very flattering, I know.... :shrug:

Actually, I think you're one of the few Fi users who is able to depict Fe accurately. Especially here:

Fe is a mental attitude... it is a matter of regarding external "definitions" for value as true, and it looks to the external to explain (er justify) individual/personal values.

and here:

Fe mentality is basically seeking validation in terms of consensus or adjusting itself a bit to fit the consensus. The individual still has their own preferences and emotions, but they will be adjusted to create accord with something outside them, which then validates them. Yes, this does cause a repression and/or tendency to corral others into the same opinion.

Most people love to just pass Fe off as the hivemind, having absolutely no personal or individual value, and just blindly accepting what society accepts. I love that you are able to explain it so well--that Fe users have their own damn opinions and values, but have that external influences affecting them. I tend to question myself if something that I value isn't the consensus--I don't stop valuing it, but I stop to question it. "If no one else thinks the same way, am I wrong?? Why is that?" I feel more confident about the things I believe in if other people believe in them too. I don't stop believing in them if no one else does... it just makes me feel better about it.
 

anticlimatic

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Convert your deep feelings to thoughts, then you're in Ti territory. Once there you'll need Fe to get you by, so things should work themselves out naturally.
 

OrangeAppled

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Convert your deep feelings to thoughts, then you're in Ti territory. Once there you'll need Fe to get you by, so things should work themselves out naturally.

Feelings are thoughts for Feeling types. We experience it as rational reasoning (Feeling is a rational function that reasons to determine value), not merely as emotion (which is more data that is considered as relevant).
 

Myths Of Zephyr

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You don't "use" these things. Fe is a mental attitude... it is a matter of regarding external "definitions" for value as true, and it looks to the external to explain (er justify) individual/personal values. Harmony is a way of validating - others share the value, making it truer (err...). It is very pragmatic in this sense - if there is no agreed upon value, then an asserted value is arbitrary, making it rather useless for, er, personal transactions, or valueless.

To mimic this mindset, try interpreting meaning, worth, etc, in relation to some external context. This doesn't mean blindly adopting values - it means gauging importance in terms of how things relate to others, to something outside oneself. Fi mentality is very contextual too, but instead of a broad context, it uses a narrow one - that of the individual, and not the individual interpreting necessarily (aka YOU), but the individual expressing as well. Fe is more general than that.

Is there a real world example of how that plays out? I sort of think I know where you're getting at but it's still unclear to me. What does "values" mean? What are they? Or lets say I value knowledge above most things because it's just what I think is important. How would a Fe user validate that value? Also, how do they gauge it by comparing to something outside the self? For example, if let's say the Fi user thinks that transgender people should be treated just as respectfully as anyone else, it's because that's what they feel is right. If a Fe user feels the same way, how might they have gone about validating it? Is it with what their friends/family/society/group/significant other thinks or something else? How does Fe vs. Fi in the contextual way work? I mean like if you have an example with any specific values that people hold. It makes it slightly easier to grasp.

A way to grasp it is comparing it to money. If we all use the same money, it makes transactions easier because we have an agreed upon system and understand what stands for what value, as opposed to arbitrarily assigning value and having to constantly explain that this blue paper means 5. Language and culture are other great metaphors for Fe, although they are not solely Fe or the definition of Fe.

So basically - think of the wider, "agreed upon" meaning for things, even if you know it often is just a symbol or stand-in for worth (ie "how are you?" not really being a deep personal interest in your well-being, but a polite, casual greeting that acknowledges your existence so you don't feel totally insignificant).

Fe mentality is basically seeking validation in terms of consensus or adjusting itself a bit to fit the consensus. The individual still has their own preferences and emotions, but they will be adjusted to create accord with something outside them, which then validates them. Yes, this does cause a repression and/or tendency to corral others into the same opinion.

Not very flattering, I know.... :shrug:

Would there be a more specific example of a time where a Fe user would adjust to a specific consensus? How will that create accord? Sorry, I'm a bit slow with understanding descriptions and terms. I find that a real life example helps me understand it a little better. Thank you for the reply :)
 

Myths Of Zephyr

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Convert your deep feelings to thoughts, then you're in Ti territory. Once there you'll need Fe to get you by, so things should work themselves out naturally.

That's an interesting idea. If you don't mind me asking, do you know how to go about doing it? By that I mean turning feelings into thoughts.
 

OrangeAppled

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Is there a real world example of how that plays out? I sort of think I know where you're getting at but it's still unclear to me. What does "values" mean? What are they? Or lets say I value knowledge above most things because it's just what I think is important. How would a Fe user validate that value? Also, how do they gauge it by comparing to something outside the self? For example, if let's say the Fi user thinks that transgender people should be treated just as respectfully as anyone else, it's because that's what they feel is right. If a Fe user feels the same way, how might they have gone about validating it? Is it with what their friends/family/society/group/significant other thinks or something else? How does Fe vs. Fi in the contextual way work? I mean like if you have an example with any specific values that people hold. It makes it slightly easier to grasp.

Value means what basic worth (good, bad, necessary, unimportant, etc - the nuances are endless) or moral judgment you assign to things. It can be small personal preferences (ie "I enjoy horror movies & see it as harmless entertainment") or far more complex moral principles.

In the wider social context - shaming is a big tactic. People who don't hold the same value may be painted as immoral or rude or basically assigned a negative value. This often happens as a subtle cultural shift - normalizing stuff over time. A lot of this is perception as much as Feeling, because functions don't exist in a vacuum.

They may also "recruit" - actively seek to promote their values. Fi types tend to embody/set an example, Fe tends to evangelize more. They can often prepackage values - if you are a "good person" (or insert some positive value here), then it means you uphold/support/accept X, Y and Z. If you only accept X & Y, then to be deemed a "good person", you may start to accept Z too.

So along with your example - people who don't feel transgender choices are moral may be painted as "transphobic" or given some other negative value, thus attempting to socially shame them and motivate them to change their belief.

I think a Fi type (not user - you don't use them, you ARE them; they are ego types, aka ways of identifying and interpreting reality) would likely come to a conclusion based on a web of many conceptual value premises (I think of these more like life themes, such as "authenticity" or "peace" or "respect") which leads them to conclude that X stance is the best to meeting these fundamentals. This web of their has been formed and refined over time, by examining their internal experience (and others' via empathy) to conclude what is necessary, good, etc, for the human condition. Fi types often try to appeal to this within others - to get them to empathize with someone else and see life through their experience, so that people can revise their values to recognize a broader range of human experience. This often leads to suggesting tolerance, not necessarily agreement.

A Fe type may have a web of personal values too, but they tend to be more real-time, result-oriented; a certain way of being creates relationships and atmospheres that meet needs of the human condition. These needs are often taught or observed as a part of everyday life; extroverted types tend to take for granted things (ie human needs) as objective realities and spend less time working out a justification, but perhaps more energy in pursuit of them or acting inline with them. For Fe, there is also more focus on the "space between people" and how we all connect and relate. Fe types often try to appeal to the way people feel connected - is there good feeling between us so we can come to a consensus and meet our needs collectively? They often want more cohesive agreement over mere tolerance (and there is a truth that total tolerance is way too idealistic at times).

I am sorry my examples are still vague. I am not great with concrete examples. Metaphor and abstract illustrations are more my forte.
These are very general and not suggesting there is a rigid mental construct for each type and no crossover in approaches to value concepts. Both are a preference for Feeling, after all.


Would there be a more specific example of a time where a Fe user would adjust to a specific consensus? How will that create accord? Sorry, I'm a bit slow with understanding descriptions and terms. I find that a real life example helps me understand it a little better. Thank you for the reply :)

The above recruiting scenario - they may adapt to keep their own status of "good person", the definition of which has just shifted culturally.
 

anticlimatic

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That's an interesting idea. If you don't mind me asking, do you know how to go about doing it? By that I mean turning feelings into thoughts.

:rly???: Maybe turn feelings into logical postulates, and build with those instead. Dissect value judgements truthfully and impartially down to their mechanics, beyond the context of yourself. Try considering them in the context of others. Should put you smack dab in the middle of Fe territory.
 

SearchingforPeace

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IDGAF about group mentality. I have an extremely strong set of personal values. Screw hivemind.

But, without thought, I sense what others are feeling. I understand how to communicate with them. I don't get to choose to feel that someone nearby is upset. I just feel their emotions automatically. I can feel tension in others easily. And so forth.

Given the choice between slamming someone for having contrary values or finding common ground, I find common ground every time. And that is where my Fe stands out.

I can talk with anyone, and I mean anyone, about anything. I make people feel relaxed and comfortable, like they can trust me, like I care about them.

So, I do care about others greatly, but it is more of a love for all humanity connection thing.

And that is one way to get in touch with Fe, even shadow Fe.

Look at everyone you see and find something good about them. Then, in your mind, say, "I love you for XXXX". It is a way for you to feel connected to the world. Plus, when you are saying that in your mind, it seems to give out positive vibes to the world.

The more you open yourself to loving humanity in general and increasing empathy and compassion, the more Fe will be accessible to you.

The growth path for FPs is turning their feelings outwards. The growth path for FJs is turning their feelings inward.

For me, I spend time every day trying to listen to my inner feelings, things I ignored most of my life. Often it is painful. But pain is often a sign of growth.

FPs seem to struggle with the feelings of others at times. They bristle at Fe expectations. I suspect that is mostly discomfort with their own shadow Fe and rejection of social expectations that haven't been expressed by anyone.

That would seem to be the inverse of FJs turning inward and what I experienced.
 

Myths Of Zephyr

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]
What you've written is absolutely beautiful. I can actually feel the love off of you:wubbie:

Do you have examples of when you've met someone with contrary beliefs and found common ground instead? I find it hard to put that in action without knowing how it actually plays out. It seems that I might come off the wrong way and that the other person will think I'm either changing the topic, being too hesitant to agree with them, or perhaps secretly judging them when I actually don't mean any of the above.

How do you talk to everyone so comfortably? :shock: I'm socially awkward so it's a bit hard for me to strike up a conversation that lasts longer than 3 seconds.

Another thing, do you find you often express your emotions? Since Fe extroverts feeling and all. Also, when I was doing the socionics test, it said "I often say things to get an emotional reaction out of people". I'm assuming that was for Fe. How do you do that specifically? Any examples?
 

SearchingforPeace

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]
What you've written is absolutely beautiful. I can actually feel the love off of you:wubbie:
I didn't realize I it was beautiful or I was expressing love, truth be told. Thank you for your kind words.

Do you have examples of when you've met someone with contrary beliefs and found common ground instead? I find it hard to put that in action without knowing how it actually plays out. It seems that I might come off the wrong way and that the other person will think I'm either changing the topic, being too hesitant to agree with them, or perhaps secretly judging them when I actually don't mean any of the above.

In my life, I have talked with people of all walks of life and backgrounds. Whether it be murderers or drug dealers or US senators or people in Brazilian flavelas or rocket scientists or teachers or mechanics or anything else, there is common humanity in each.

Now, when I was younger, I had more trouble doing so with girls that I liked, but even then I could connect easily.

But there is no real cost to being friendly. Most appreciate a "Hi" and a "How are you?"

So, how did I connect with a death row inmate? By respecting him as a person and treating him with dignity. By listening. By using empathy and compassion. Did I have much in common with him? Only being men and Americans. But that was enough.....

How did connect with a dyed in the wool anti-American Brazilian communist? By listening and building common ground. He was shocked we had anything in common, but we had great conversations about life.

I can learn about something from anyone.

I remember a conversation I had one with a rancher. We ended up talking for about 3 hours with him explaining modern ranch techniques and clueless city boy I am just listening.

Respecting and accepting others for their humanity is key.

How do you talk to everyone so comfortably? :shock: I'm socially awkward so it's a bit hard for me to strike up a conversation that lasts longer than 3 seconds.

Find what others are interested in and talk about that. I was sitting by myself last week for breakfast and ended up talking with a gentleman for half an hour. It started with almost nothing, but went wide ranging, much about his family. Most people can talk about their own interests and most people like to have an audience.

Another thing, do you find you often express your emotions? Since Fe extroverts feeling and all. Also, when I was doing the socionics test, it said "I often say things to get an emotional reaction out of people". I'm assuming that was for Fe. How do you do that specifically? Any examples?

Only as needed. It isn't planned, but comes automatically. Whatever feels necessary. When I do public speaking, the feel of the audience is very important. I really dig deep to what I feel is needed to convey my thoughts and feelings.

I don't try to manipulate others for my own goals and find it near impossible to do. But I do speech with intention and power to push others to action. But I really need to believe the goal is good and to not benefit myself....
 

OrangeAppled

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:rly???: Maybe turn feelings into logical postulates, and build with those instead. Dissect value judgements truthfully and impartially down to their mechanics, beyond the context of yourself. Try considering them in the context of others. Should put you smack dab in the middle of Fe territory.

Nope that's still Fi, albeit mature and aided by Ne.

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] Not to rain on your parade, but I feel like most of that is being an NF. The energy level is a bit different for an INFP, and we may enjoy quiet solitude too much to engage as many people as often, but the end result can be strikingly similar.

I basically do spiritual mentoring via my church and talk to people of widely different spiritual beliefs and cultural backgrounds, and it isn't much different from what you describe.

In which case, I'd encourage the OP to focus more on Ne (getting out there and exploring possibilities as they emerge and different perspectives in real time) than trying to mimic a Fe mentality.

I do agree that it is a struggle for Fi types to turn it outward (and vice versa for Fe types), but again, I think Ne is more of the outlet there.
 

anticlimatic

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Nope that's still Fi, albeit mature and aided by Ne.

Nah, I think you're confusing Ne with Te. If you can dismantle a value judgement it ceases to be a value judgement, and therefore ceases to be Fi at all. Ti/Fe- subjective logic, objective feeling Fi/Te- subjective feeling, objective logic.
 

OrangeAppled

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Nah, I think you're confusing Ne with Te. If you can dismantle a value judgement it ceases to be a value judgement, and therefore ceases to be Fi at all. Ti/Fe- subjective logic, objective feeling Fi/Te- subjective feeling, objective logic.

Noooo.... because exploring different contexts and seeing what is beneath the surface is more of a Ne thing (iNtuition in general).
Fi doesnt require Te to reason....it is rational in itself. Feeling IS rational reasoning. The impersonal logic of Thinking doesn't determine value. Te might help you figure out practical steps to reach a goal in line with a value. It may be a part of using factual information to back it up. But Fi is very much about forming lines of reasoning to explain/support/create a value judgment or concept.
 

Forever

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I'm scared that I don't know what the cognitive functions even mean anymore.

What if I have dominant Bi because I'm a bit-never mind.

:mellow:
 

SearchingforPeace

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Nope that's still Fi, albeit mature and aided by Ne.

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] Not to rain on your parade, but I feel like most of that is being an NF. The energy level is a bit different for an INFP, and we may enjoy quiet solitude too much to engage as many people as often, but the end result can be strikingly similar.

I basically do spiritual mentoring via my church and talk to people of widely different spiritual beliefs and cultural backgrounds, and it isn't much different from what you describe.

In which case, I'd encourage the OP to focus more on Ne (getting out there and exploring possibilities as they emerge and different perspectives in real time) than trying to mimic a Fe mentality.

I do agree that it is a struggle for Fi types to turn it outward (and vice versa for Fe types), but again, I think Ne is more of the outlet there.

I fully agree that NFs can end up doing the same thing but different ways.

NFPs look inside themselves to relate to others. NFJs don't. I don't look inside myself to connect to anyone.

My ENFP friend and I have discussed this in depth. She feels connected to most people in general, but struggles to feel comfortable with strangers. And she disconnects from those with evil natures. She just can't NeFi it to force herself to do so.

For me, because I don't need to look inside, that doesn't happen to me...... I can interact with those with pretty dark hearts and still feel their common humanity.....
 
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