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  1. #1
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Default edcoaching's Q & A Thread

    Oh, this is a great thread concept, ec. I'll go sticky this right away.

    And I'm pleased to be able to ask the first questions in your thread.

    a/ What is your opinion on same type relationships?
    b/ How accurate - or, how difficult - is it to type someone based solely on posts and threads on an internet forum?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  2. #2
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Oh, this is a great thread concept, ec. I'll go sticky this right away.

    And I'm pleased to be able to ask the first questions in your thread.

    a/ What is your opinion on same type relationships?
    b/ How accurate - or, how difficult - is it to type someone based solely on posts and threads on an internet forum?
    A) On a personal level, I know I never dated another INFJ...work closely with one, though, and we had so much fun we had to do all the planning via email or we tended to get off track. Cotraining is like working with a clone as far as anticipating each other's needs and moves. And not talking on plane trips after 3 days of training...

    I'm actually married to my opposite, ESTP, which is exciting, fun, and a lot of work, but we've pulled it off for a couple decades now.

    In general...Relationships with someone of the same type would keep things simple as far as general communication, interests, what-to-do-on-Saturday mornings (one of our big dilemmas). But it also means you share the same blind spots. Statistically, the most divorces are when two Perceiving types marry AND neither has the more Judging skills of budgeting/paying bills on time, and so on. The other factors I hear are things like married ISTJs realizing at age 64 that they have no idea what kind of a lifestyle they want when they retire; neither has considered the future (note: none of these statements apply to ALL couples with the mentioned type). Or, two ENFJs leading so many volunteer efforts that their kids get into trouble because of absentee parents. Or, two INFPs where neither voices their values clashes until it's a bit late in the anger process.

    The only study I've seen on who marries whom showed most people marry someone with at least two shared preferences. The only two pairings more likely than by chance are ISTJ-ENFP and INFJ-ESTP.

    B) Typing from online posting...there are a bunch of factors.
    • There's a tendency for Introverted types to perhaps express their true nature more easily/apparently online simply because the introverted process of writing calls on their dominant function. Theoretically, the Extraverts would be relying on their auxiliary a bit more than if you met them face to face.
    • It's really hard to type someone else, anyway. Behaviors that you're seeing/reading/hearing about can come from type, yes, but also from skills, acting, culture, goals, values, emotional reactions (and yes, Thinking types react emotionally, too). So what are you actually reading in a post?
    • I've already had a few PMs from people on this forum saying, "I'm really XXXX but try to post like a YYYY just to see how people react." Once you really understand type (and so many people on this forum really do) you can definitely bend communication to influence/tick others off/have fun/experiment
    • Even in person, because of these factors, it's really hard to type others. Generally, if they don't want to have a conversation about it or the circumstances allow for it, I need to work with someone to determine their type--in-depth, on a project or committee. Just watching doesn't help a whole lot because environment influences behavior. For example when I do trainings people constantly say, "Oh c'mon, you must be Extraverted." My reply is that the job requres me to be. What would they think if I were true to my own nature and said, "Why don't you read the book this morning? Then we can decide at noon whether anyone wants to talk about it. Write me a note with your ideas and..."


    That said...I think clues from questions people ask on this forum are sometimes more accurate than from the rest of their posts. The current thread exploring just exactly Ni is might be an example.

    Some types do have rather distinct writing styles that provide clues (INTPs in research tend to use bigger words, longer sentences, etc.).

    But then, I've been so schooled in the ethics of not typing people from afar but instead letting them figure out their own types and offering assistance in that process (which is done well here in a lot of the "What's my type" forum when the Q & A process goes on with someone) that it's just not one of my main uses for type. I'd have to think hard about other things I might glean from online posts....
    edcoaching

  3. #3
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    What problems ought an INTP(m)/INFJ(f) couple be on the lookout for?
    Do you have any tips for parenting INTJ and INFP teen girls?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #4
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    What problems ought an INTP(m)/INFJ(f) couple be on the lookout for?
    Do you have any tips for parenting INTJ and INFP teen girls?
    INTP/INFJ is rare only because the types are rare. I'd say their expenses for purchasing books could be pretty high and they'd better each have a private place! I can tell you that in working relationships, INFJs often enjoy having INTPs to bounce ideas off of and receive critique as to their merits/avenues they need to explore further/inconsistencies. INTPs likewise enjoy the INFJs insights as to how to get others to buy into their ideas and streamline the verbage. They can have the natural verbal sparring fun that most IN's enjoy. A lot of that translates well into personal relationships. Both types, though, rank high on what is know as "obliviousness," not being aware of what a partner really thinks of them. Since both also tend not to voice their inner feelings a whole lot, they can end up simmering rather than resolving things and then feel punched in the gut because they were clueless anything was wrong.

    I'm not a marriage/relationaship counselor but there's a great book called Intimacy and Type by Jones and Sherman that looks at the strengths and pitfalls of every combination. Strengths are the general love of intellect, agreement on high standards for their children, and clear devotion to each other over friends. Pitfalls...both are pretty stubborn types, so be careful of entrenchment and then withdrawal, not even working toward resolution or agreeing to disagree on some things. Further, both "know" they are right. Figure out rules for these situations before a big one comes along. Figure out common and individual interests and give each other freedom (and separate nooks in your living space) to pursue them. Don't judge quality of relationship by comparing time spent together with how other couples fare.

    INTJ daughters--run interference if schoolwork is too repetitive/rote/standardized. They'll blossom if they can put their own stamp on assignments. Otherwise pressuring them to perform in a rote environment can really backfire into total apathy about school. If they buy into the school game and put too much pressure on themselves, Get them involved in something where they have to deal with girls--scouts/sports teams/volunteering somewhere so they pick up on social cues. Give them space after school--chances are they did their share of socializing for the day and may need several hours alone somewhere. If they don't have their own room,figure out how to partition it so they have some privacy and buy them good headphones. And, get them involved in setting rules and consequences (actually good for most kids...). And, while you don't want to make a big deal of this, and probably need to enlist a friend's help, many IN girls are pretty clueless about hair/makeup/clothing (a friend of mine still helps me put together outfits) so keep an eye out for whether she's taking enough care to fit in socially--figure out who she might take advice from if she's kinda hiding in sloppiness...

    INFP girls...figure out what their top values are and then be careful about tangling with them. If it's authenticity, for example, like the INTJ the INFP will NOT go along with stupid schoolwork...Make sure they have room to use their imaginations, like coming up with their own game rules (you didn't say how old they are). Work with them to set boundaries--telling an INFP that they have to do homework the instant they walk in the door is a recipe for disaster in most cases. If they seem stubborn about something, make sure you know the root cause and then remember it--it's usually a value conflict and you can win the battle and lose the war...The other big thing is to be on their schedule for listening. They might go days without sharing anything significant and all of a sudden want to have an hour-long talk about their idea for a family event or a complaint about school or an amazing book they read. Oh--and read at least some of what they want to read; that may be the best path to heart-to-heart talks. In adolescence, especially if they're at a high-pressure school, keep watch for signs of depression--which can be difficult since they're pretty quiet and withdrawn naturally!! Because INFP is opposite to most cultural norms, they're really at risk for feeling like no one understands them. The more their environment allows them to be unique (fine arts schools, sports where individual performance counts, choosing what books to read instead of all-class novels, independent study, a hobby/pursuit that no one else they know takes part in like--sword dancing or training/showing dogs or a creative writing class at some great center in town or juggling or whatever they show a spark of interest in) the more they'll come into their own and thrive...
    edcoaching

  5. #5
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Do you have any advice on how to resolve the difficulty in determining the internal and therefore dominant function for an introverted perceptive type? By way of a specific example, I was discussing this with an INFP (possible INXP) recently. We were able to "see" the intuition on the surface as the extraverted function of this perceiving type (as would be the same, I understand for an INTP). I believe this exasperated by the NP's desire not to have closure on an idea or concept - so they avoid choosing while they weigh up the "goodness" of each, perhaps indefinitely.

    The practical difficulty comes in that the individual (not me, but I sympathise!) can answer the questions to do with the T-F axis either way - either they want to base things on values, or they want to use a colder logical structure. Both are appealing, and in cases like this the testee is often no longer naive to the MBTI test process. This "problem" T-F seems particularly prevalent in the professionally qualified sector, in that the individual may be an F at heart (no pun intended) but is taught to recognise and make judgements using logic, so they end up valuing both -one by nature and one by nurture. My theory being that many INFPs, particularly borderline ones, will present INTP where they are involved in an intellectual environment that values typical male academic values (intellectual enquiry, logical structures, and often degree qualified in a typically NT subject like mathematics). I work in just such an environment.

    So, my question is :

    For an introverted perceiver, is there a useful tiebreaker or process for determing the inner dominant function, given that it can not easily be determined externally by observation like the extraverted secondary one?

    What do you do when people just can't get past an "X" in their type - would you focus on what they feel (or is it think they are? ) most comfortable with?

    Any other comments on this situation or your experience would be greatly appreciated!

  6. #6
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I enjoyed reading your targeted advice for parenting INFPs and INTJs. Any advice for parenting an ENFP girl? She could conceivably be an I but I'm fairly sure she's not. And the other ones are pretty obvious.

    How early do you think is wise to start speculating about a child's type? As long as we're not locked into one unmoveable concept of the child, I mean.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #7
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Thanks, edcoaching! Very helpful stuff. More questions:

    INTP/INFJ:
    The obliviousness thing rings true and I've addressed it on my end by learning to be very outspoken about what I need/want from my husband. Learning that he was willing to do most of the things I wanted, but just didn't have a clue was a major revelation to me and that knowledge has probably helped our relationship more than anything (with the possible exception of learning about P/J differences).

    I'm not sure how to address my own obliviousness beyond trying to be aware of it. My husband is highly conflict avoidant and I can be very touchy, but I've tried to create a safe atmosphere for him to express himself and I try to watch for cues that indicate how he feels about things.

    I think I have the cues down pretty well and overall, he seems as happy as can be expected for an INTP (they seem to be a grumbly bunch as a whole) and seems to like me very much. He can be very stubborn when he doesn't want to do something, which is good because that's a cue I can't miss. Is there anything else I can do to foster communication?

    And you are right on target about the books.

    INTJ daughter:
    My daughter (15 y/o) seems to flourish in the traditional academic setting and wants to teach high school English. She has a reasonable sized mixed gender group of friends, mostly interested in anime. She has her own room and asked for an MP3 player for her last b-day, so she has headphones. I don't ever have to tell her to do her homework, but I do occasionally have to tell her to stop reading and go to sleep.

    The clothes thing . . . she does tend to dress weird and kind of like a guy. I know she will need to dress in a more feminine and conventional way, at least in the early stages of her career, but she doesn't seem to care about fitting in at this point. You know how kids will dress in some weird way to get people to leave them alone? That seems to be part of it. The other part seems to be that she's uncomfortable with her more developed body (hiding in sloppiness for sure).

    I've not addressed it because, admittedly I'm relieved she doesn't want to dress like a street walker like a lot of girls her age do, and because it seems like a kid ought to be able to express themselves and create an identity through their appearance within reason.

    I know she needs to know how to look nice when she needs to and I can help to some degree (my mom's an ESFP ), but should I nudge her in the feminine conventional direction in her everyday dress now?

    INFP daughter:
    I'm relieved that I'm kind of instinctively doing things 'right' for my INFP daughter (she's 13 y/o). I will have to make sure we have alone time on a regular basis, though. She does seem to need it and sometimes it's hard to fit it in.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #8
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Do you have any advice on how to resolve the difficulty in determining the internal and therefore dominant function for an introverted perceptive type? By way of a specific example, I was discussing this with an INFP (possible INXP) recently. We were able to "see" the intuition on the surface as the extraverted function of this perceiving type (as would be the same, I understand for an INTP). I believe this exasperated by the NP's desire not to have closure on an idea or concept - so they avoid choosing while they weigh up the "goodness" of each, perhaps indefinitely.

    The practical difficulty comes in that the individual (not me, but I sympathise!) can answer the questions to do with the T-F axis either way - either they want to base things on values, or they want to use a colder logical structure. Both are appealing, and in cases like this the testee is often no longer naive to the MBTI test process. This "problem" T-F seems particularly prevalent in the professionally qualified sector, in that the individual may be an F at heart (no pun intended) but is taught to recognise and make judgements using logic, so they end up valuing both -one by nature and one by nurture. My theory being that many INFPs, particularly borderline ones, will present INTP where they are involved in an intellectual environment that values typical male academic values (intellectual enquiry, logical structures, and often degree qualified in a typically NT subject like mathematics). I work in just such an environment.

    So, my question is :

    For an introverted perceiver, is there a useful tiebreaker or process for determing the inner dominant function, given that it can not easily be determined externally by observation like the extraverted secondary one?

    What do you do when people just can't get past an "X" in their type - would you focus on what they feel (or is it think they are? ) most comfortable with?

    Any other comments on this situation or your experience would be greatly appreciated!
    First off in my experience, INTPS and INFPs, the most individualistic of all teh types, have the hardest time believing that any typing scheme could possibly describe their uniqueness

    This may seem simplistic, but I find that the key words for each preference dichotomy are often key to helping people determine which describes them. For T and F, it's decisions--where do their first thoughts go in decisions. Granted T principles and F values are tough to distinguish between but there's an objectivity to INTPs that is recognizable. The second piece that really helps is getting at the inferior--which actually trips them up.

    So...if someone can't decide between INFP and INTP I'd start with what concerns them most when they disagree with decisions. Is it the impact on the people involved or the lack of logic/fairness in the process? What's their first inclination when someone asks for an exception--to stick to the rules (T) or make an exception (F) (this works great once someone has children; every child knows who the Feeling parent is...). As a child were they seen as overly sensitive (F) or detached, observant (T). I have a book called LifeTypes by Hirsh and Kummerow that has a chapter on each type that begins with about 3 paragraphs on the childhood of each type--stories told by adults thinking back who know their type. I have people read the INFP and INTP paragraphs and 9 times out of 10 they recognize themselves.

    In your environment, making sure the client understands the deep value of both the persuasive style of INFP argument and the logical style of INTP argument. Sometimes they can start to decipher which is natural and which is learned. For me, INFJ, those first logical English lit papers were painful--I had to work from a clear outline or I'd lose my line of argument. I wrote my dissertation with a matrix in front of me or I'd have fallen into my persuasive traps (did a few times anyway and got to rewrite...).

    If that doesn't help, I go at it backward. Are they more likely to trip up in figuring out how others will react to something (T) or in failing to stay objective about something (F).

    Does this help at all? Interpretation is such an art that it's hard to think through when the person isn't interacting with me...
    edcoaching

  9. #9
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I enjoyed reading your targeted advice for parenting INFPs and INTJs. Any advice for parenting an ENFP girl? She could conceivably be an I but I'm fairly sure she's not. And the other ones are pretty obvious.
    ENFP...make sure they've got lots of opportunities to create, lead, and help! Sitting still in school can be tough so making sure they have outlets after school for that energy are key--drama, sports, volunteering, tutoring other students, they need something that grabs their imagination or they'll find something to lead/create that won't necessarily be constructive...ENFP friends of mine were already raising $ for animal shelters, running carnivals, or leading "preschool" in their neighborhoods by the age of 10 or 12. They may get in a bit of trouble for chatting in class and may be really bored if school is too rote. They may do fine in grade school, struggle a bit in middle grades as the social navigation takes top role in their lives, and then kick in again in high school if their friends are interested in studying together or if they have a goal, like, "I need the right grades to become a great psychiatrist or family practitioner or nonprofit leader or [fill in the blank of helping profession]. Cutting a little slack and helping them plan backward, liek what's the last second they can start their homework and get it done, really, is more productive than trying to get them to follow a lot of rules...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    How early do you think is wise to start speculating about a child's type? As long as we're not locked into one unmoveable concept of the child, I mean.
    I was pretty sure by the time they my kids were 5, but part of it was working backward with resources written by adults who know their type and reflected back on what they did as children. As in whole type patterns, not preference by preference. E and I show up earliest and it actually helps the child if you can figure out how they gain energy. You may need to wait until adolescence to know the second function for sure. For example it was really clear my daughter was E and T (at age 2 she was already asking if she could be the boss of everyone when with her cousins) but the S-N was a bit iffy. One confirmation of ENTJ for example was how she thrived under an NT teacher who demanded the best from her...

    So, as long as you keep an open mind, postulating and then matching nurture, opportunities and discipline to that hypothesis while staying open to changing it is great. For example,sending an I child to their room for punishment does not have the same effect as sending an E child
    edcoaching

  10. #10
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think I have the cues down pretty well and overall, he seems as happy as can be expected for an INTP (they seem to be a grumbly bunch as a whole) and seems to like me very much. He can be very stubborn when he doesn't want to do something, which is good because that's a cue I can't miss. Is there anything else I can do to foster communication?
    Emails?
    Not trying to be funny...I'm just thinking of all the phenomenal correspondence I have with my ISTP brother/INTP colleagues via email. I also find that conversation is often around common interests rather than relationships, like movies or books or music. They might lead to more personal conversations, but that sharing of ideas is often the key...

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    INTJ daughter:
    I know she needs to know how to look nice when she needs to and I can help to some degree (my mom's an ESFP ), but should I nudge her in the feminine conventional direction in her everyday dress now?
    If she isn't far off the mark of the students at her high school, I wouldn't worry. And I'd avoid the word feminine in favor of professional or workplace or adult or some theme you hear her begging to be. Sometimes they do better with eccentric outfits from thrift stores that accessorize interestingly (although they might need an ES friend's help to pull it off) than with anything conventional...
    Last edited by edcoaching; 09-17-2008 at 09:26 PM. Reason: quotes didn't fall right
    edcoaching

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