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edcoaching's Q & A Thread

edcoaching

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This is tough because I want to say the former, but my OCD has always made me categorize and systematize.

If I said that I was having fantasies about categorizing and systematizing things, would that help? Because that would be the honest answer from what I can recall.

I don't miss details, I'm hyper-sensitive to such. And I don't miss what other people need. I'm pretty aware of that as well.

But the questions was, "What gets you in trouble more?" so I have to go with poor Fe. (On cognitive process tests, my Se and Si are both very well developed, so that might be the reason.)

Yes. And it always feels manipulative, but I'm okay with that.

I'm pretty sure that's the reason I started reading Jung originally - in order to figure people out so I could control situations that would otherwise make me uncomfortable, which stems from extreme introversion I'd imagine.

The former, without a doubt.

More? Hmm. . . the latter.

I'm constantly planning toward the future - retooling, modifying existing plans, planning for anything and everything.

If you were in a workshop I was running, I'd have you read the first 3 paragraphs in the INTJ and INTP chapters of LifeTypes to see if one rang true. If not, I'd ask you to join the T's rather than the N's in a couple exercises, and maybe let you float over after awhile.

As I said, i know NTs in general can have S much more developed than we NFs because we're more concerned with whether we're helping people than with accuracy/competency. But as a dominant N, albeit one whose parents didn't interfere with imaginative play, I can't imagine not recognizing that as the dominant motivator of my childhood. It's being Ralphie in A Christmas Story and the little boy in The Salamander Room vs. being Commander Spock or Bean in Ender's Game...
But...fantasizing over categorizing sounds like a little Ti figuring he could pretty much skip childhood and get on with making things work better.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Haight, your learning methodology (that you described in your example concerning the 'strike in baseball') is in much closer affinity with Ni-Te than Ti-Ne. This is the case because a dominant perceiving type (in this case Ni) is concerned wit collecting information thoroughly before making judgments. Introverted Perceivers (Ni and Si) tend to have their inner being defined by their perceptions, (because the introverted perceiving function is their strongest introverted faculty), and for this reason they tend to be very careful about the information they collect.

Secondly, you mention that you plan far ahead and plan very carefully too, I infer. Introverted Intuition is the most abstract of all faculties and therefore most future oriented. INJs tend to be the most careful planners because their perception is introverted. Thus, as aforementioned, the success of the INJ's interaction with external environment is paramount (again because perception is obviously concerned with the external environment, as that is all that could be perceived), and because the INJ's inner being is defined by perceptions, such task is deemed to be the most important. Hence, Ni tends to have a very intense focus on what 'my future and my path shall be like', and this explains why Introverted perceivers (both Introverted Intuitives and Introverted Sensors tend to be highly security conscious).

A type which is defined by Introverted Thinking and Extroverted Intuition would first of all be less concerned with collecting information carefully, but instead skip to making decisions as quickly and as accurately as possible in order to establish logical order. Very often the Introverted Thinking type establishes logical order too quickly, or in other words, makes decisions far too early, long before he has collected the adequate information. Secondly, the Ti-Ne type, tends not to see nearly as far into the future and less security conscious. The former is the case simply because he is much less intuitive than the Ni-Te type. The latter is the case because his strongest perceiving faculty is Extroverted rather than Introverted and for this reason his inner being is not defined by his perceptions.

Secondly, you mention that you would read a book about baseball and talk to people who may be knowledgeable about the game before preparing your answer. This is much more akin to Te than Ti because in this case you are relying on external methods of inquiry, such as expert opinion and other means of interaction with the environment in order to solve your problem. An Introverted Thinking type on the other han would turn inwards for his critical analysis. (This brings our focus back to the previously established notion that the Introverted Thinker encounters the grave risk of incurring false beliefs due to lack of adequate interaction with the external environment). This is very reminiscent of how the rationalist philosophers of the 17th century (Spinoza, Descartes and Leibniz) thought that they could deduce the system which outlines how the world functions through pure contemplation. This is emblematic of the Ti oriented school of thought. The rival school of thought to theirs was that of the empiricists, who insisted that as much of our inquiry as possible must clearly correspond with the external world, in fact our thoughts, many of the radical empiricists held, are unsound altogether unless we find confirmation for them in the external world. They are 'sophistry and non-sense', as David Hume used to say.



Finally, the last question you ought to consider is the following. His arguments lack the convincing power of reason. He can only profess or proclaim. His is the "voice crying in the wilderness." Psychological Types, P.402, Introverted Intuition.

This quote of Jung points out that Introverted Intuition, much like Introverted Thinking resides deep within one's psyche and therefore often compells one to believe that there is much validity to the thoughts entertained by the person of this type. Introverted Intuition however, unlike Introverted Thinking, is a perceiving function, it merely entertains hunches, it does not systemize ideas. Thus, as a result, it gives one a strong hunch that they are right, but does not exactly know how to explain one's rectitude. This, is very uncommon with Introverted Thinking, as the foremost goal of such a function is acquisition of internal logical order.



"His language is not the one currently spoken--it has become too subjective. His arguments
 

Jeffster

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If you were in a workshop I was running, I'd have you read the first 3 paragraphs in the INTJ and INTP chapters of LifeTypes to see if one rang true. If not, I'd ask you to join the T's rather than the N's in a couple exercises, and maybe let you float over after awhile.
.

Man...I wanna go to one of your workshops, it sounds like fun! :)
 

Geoff

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I'm inclined to agree in the round with Bluewing's assessment - I find his writing a little hard at times, but I think he's saying he sees Te-Ni in Haight rather than Ne-Ti. That's my take.

I also find him remarkably similar to work with as a confirmed INTJ colleague of mine, who is :

bright, intelligent, intellectually curious, blunt, a little socially awkward, always-right-even-when-he's-wrong, occasionally surprisingly gentle and considerate, gathers external facts to structure arguments/thought processes and brings his ideas out from within, and clashes a bit with me professionally due to the opposing functions. I like him though. My Ne hits his Te brick wall often, but it mostly works. I see the same things in Haight.
 

edcoaching

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Well...in my last post to Haight I was actually implying that further self-analysis probably wouldn't be helpful. Being a part of an experiential workshop carefully designed so that participants see the preferences in action often leads to far more self-awareness. When people can't make up their minds, I don't push it in workshop settings. Instead I ask them to "float" between the likely groups and often quickly they know where they'd feel most at home.

In one problem solving exercise, for example, where the first step is establishing the facts of the situation and defining the actual problem to be solved, the dominant Intuitive group (split Ne and Ni if there are enough participants) usually quickly gloss over the facts and move on to possibilities without focusing in on one aspect/problem inherent in the situation. In fact, whatever facts they list are usually voted down by the dominant Sensing participants--they're assumptions, opinions, not facts.

In contrast, usually someone in the dominant Thinking group has taken notes while I explain the problem situation (I purposely do it orally so that no one can go back and fact-check; makes the type differences more stark). There is considerable debate about what I said in an effort to bring clarity and many, many possible problem definitions debated before one is selected. It's the only group where discussion ever gets heated in this exercise. I have to remind them that this is a scenario, not a real life problem they have to solve.

The dominant Sensing groups do get the most facts down, including things I didn't say but can be stated as facts when one considers known facts about such ideas.

The dominant Feeling group almost always states their judgment of the situation as a fact and starts discussing how to persuade the idiots in the scenario see the error of their ways.

...and as for Jung, always remember that he was Ti, actually working from a rather limited data set as he developed his theory of psychological types--his failed relationship with Freud and the not-so-healthy people he counseled. A ton of work and observation and research and real-life application has since added to what is known about the types. Just as we reexamine Einstein and Newton and others who established foundational ideas as we learn more...
 

Haphazard

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My literature essays sound like bad INTJ practice, now that I think about it.

Fucking details.
 

edcoaching

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My literature essays sound like bad INTJ practice, now that I think about it.

Fucking details.

Yeah, I had to write my dissertation with a matrix in front of me at all times as a reminder that I was logically proving something, not persuading. My chair actually took me through 20 pages of my text, line by line, until I got the difference. In self-defense, I was making my living as a writer at the time, in fields where persuasion is honorable and motivating, so not only was I operating out of preference but working against a very ingrained habit...
 

Haphazard

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"Quotes? Why do I need quotes? Quotes from the text can be misplaced and misleading! Haven't you read the book yourself, anyway? You know this stuff is true, or at least makes sense in some way, so why do I need quotes? Somebody who has never read this book before wouldn't know any quotes from it. For all they know, I could just be making them up! So why? Why quotes?"
 

Haight

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Thanks for your help, guys.

Now I know the truth. But on the other hand, notta was right again. Can't win for winning!

I do think it is difficult to type someone with OCD, or other such conditions - which is why I've never been sure where the type begins and the OCD end (and vice versa). Hence, I think an INTP with OCD is possible, but no one would ever believe they were an INTP. Does that make sense?
 

Jack Flak

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I do think it is difficult to type someone with OCD, or other such conditions - which is why I've never been sure where the type begins and the OCD end (and vice versa). Hence, I think an INTP with OCD is possible, but no one would ever believe they were an INTP. Does that make sense?
Type and such things aren't necessarily intertwined. They stack. They are both aspects of your psyche, along with countless else.
 

edcoaching

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Thanks for your help, guys.

Now I know the truth. But on the other hand, notta was right again. Can't win for winning!

I do think it is difficult to type someone with OCD, or other such conditions - which is why I've never been sure where the type begins and the OCD end (and vice versa). Hence, I think an INTP with OCD is possible, but no one would ever believe they were an INTP. Does that make sense?

Absolutely makes sense. Key idea is that the type descriptions are for the most part written re normal development and add/ocd/overbearing parents, etc., can all mess up a person's ability to figure out how they prefer to operate...
 

Tallulah

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I'm not sure some of those questions would have been accurate, in my case, though. I have always tested INTP, the usual descriptions fit perfectly, and I barely have a scrap of J in me. But I always lived a fantasy life in my head as a kid, I always imagined myself in the future (though I didn't necessarily make concrete plans), and if a teacher gave a stupid assignment, I didn't even stress that much over it--I'd do it quickly in class so I could read a book or spend the rest of the time in my head. If I'm stressed out, I tend to shut down and do mind-numbing things, as long as it's just stuff like overloading, but if it's something that's frustrating me and causing me to question my abilities, I might get a bit emotionally strung out.

I think from your questions, though, you'd have probably said I was INTJ, and I know I'm not INTJ. *shrugs*
 

Geoff

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I'm not sure some of those questions would have been accurate, in my case, though. I have always tested INTP, the usual descriptions fit perfectly, and I barely have a scrap of J in me. But I always lived a fantasy life in my head as a kid, I always imagined myself in the future (though I didn't necessarily make concrete plans), and if a teacher gave a stupid assignment, I didn't even stress that much over it--I'd do it quickly in class so I could read a book or spend the rest of the time in my head. If I'm stressed out, I tend to shut down and do mind-numbing things, as long as it's just stuff like overloading, but if it's something that's frustrating me and causing me to question my abilities, I might get a bit emotionally strung out.

I think from your questions, though, you'd have probably said I was INTJ, and I know I'm not INTJ. *shrugs*

Remember where she said INTP and INFP are the most individualistic types that therefore resist being typed.. :devil:
 

Jack Flak

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Remember where she said INTP and INFP are the most individualistic types that therefore resist being typed.. :devil:
INTPs, if accurately typed, have the least trouble accepting it.
 

Delphyne

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Why should someone resist being typed as an INTP or INFP? They´re the best types. :yes:

The dominant Feeling group almost always states their judgment of the situation as a fact and starts discussing how to persuade the idiots in the scenario see the error of their ways.

That fits me quite nicely.
 

Jae Rae

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Seriously (sort of),
  • INTPs are the most withdrawn of all children, and Extraverted moms wonder if something is wrong
  • They pick up on a particular interest and follow it to the end--bugs, dinosaurs, etc. INT/FJs can have similar interests but they'll have more than one going
  • INT/FJ's often continues threads of their childhood fantasy worlds into adulthood
  • In grade school if the work was stupid, INT/FJs tended to rush through and be sloppy,go find something more interesting. The INT/FJ might tell the teacher it's dumb or suggest ways of making it better from about 5th grade on. INTPs often detach, stew on how dumb it is, not realize how much time is passing, never quite finish.

Thank you, Ed. A very informative and interesting post and one that's timely for me. I hope I can jump in here with my own questions.

I can relate to the first item on your list for sure. I'm not E, but I'm way more E than my son or husband, both INTPs. My husband thinks he's fine, just a little lazy.

My son is very self-contained, as is my husband. They can spend hours on the computer happily reading articles, watching movies, listening to music.

I'm not sure about the last item; he's found school dumb or pointless and in middle school he wrote a thoughtful, articulate critique of school policy. He's not likely to rush through to get to something else. He'll stew, complain, procrastinate or not put in much effort and find time has gone by.

He started out wanting to major in Biology, but now he's not sure because the hard science and math prereqs are killing him. He got a top score on the SAT II Bio. test and an A in college-level Infectious Diseases, but barely squeezed out Cs in college Calculus and Chem. He needs at least one more Calc. class, another Chem and two Physics classes for a Bio major. Privately I've always thought he'd do better in Social Science because his math skills aren't the best. Tutoring, extra hard work, etc. are needed but he hasn't put in that kind of effort at college.

This quarter he's taking Marine Biology and two film classes.

Are INTPs slow starters, ie, does it take them awhile to find themselves and their passion? And what does an INTP who's between driving interests do?Speaking of driving, he's 19-1/2 and shows no interest in learning how.

Thanks for your posts.
 

heart

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What cognitive type is most likely to have "people miss the point" as their theme song?

You mean, what cognitive type is most likely to have others miss the point they were trying to make?

No, that this is their consistent complaint about other people and what they feel the evils of the world rest on. They say that people do not focus in on the real important aspects of problems, no true critical thought, their minds are distracted by trivia and hence nothing ever gets solved or taken care of in a proper fashion so misery goes on and on and people remain clueless why.
 

edcoaching

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I'm not sure about the last item; he's found school dumb or pointless and in middle school he wrote a thoughtful, articulate critique of school policy. He's not likely to rush through to get to something else. He'll stew, complain, procrastinate or not put in much effort and find time has gone by.

That actually sounds typical INTP as the unmotivated student. They'll occasionally protest but rather than fight the system in public school if they find it stupid, they just can't bring themselves to engage...

Are INTPs slow starters, ie, does it take them awhile to find themselves and their passion? And what does an INTP who's between driving interests do?Speaking of driving, he's 19-1/2 and shows no interest in learning how.

I'm not even sure this is type-related in this current environment. I know SO many young men who are having a hard time figuring out goals--whether it's because of economic uncertainties going back to 2001 or because they aren't going to sell their souls to corporate environments and haven't figured out alternatives. Between interests, there's RPG, travel til their money runs out...reading Faulkner and Dick and other tomes, setting up web forums or other tech things, finding others to play Ultimate or disc golf with...In my extended family, three out of the four young men fit this description, although all are scraping by, making a living...
 

edcoaching

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Why should someone resist being typed as an INTP or INFP? They´re the best types. :yes:

They see it as being labeled and no label could capture their uniqueness. I was working with about 60 high schoolers one day and 4 guys were standing on the side, arms folded, frowning. I asked what was wrong, and they said, "You're trying to label us." I handed them the INTP type description and asked them to see if they found anything in it that made sense (We'd done a bunch of exercises already and i'd seen their output; this wasn't really typing from afar).

About 5 minutes later they waved me over and said, "Yeah, this is us..."

Happens time and again.
 

edcoaching

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No, that this is their consistent complaint about other people and what they feel the evils of the world rest on. They say that people do not focus in on the real important aspects of problems, no true critical thought, their minds are distracted by trivia and hence nothing ever gets solved or taken care of in a proper fashion so misery goes on and on and people remain clueless why.

Hmmm....not sure i could narrow this to one type

  • INTJ/INTP could do it if they've worked out their full solotion to the world's problems yet can't articulate it in a way that makes anyone take notice (lack of Fe in presenting it...)
  • INFJs could do it because we're so used to being right:)
  • ENTPs who don't listen and who are on a crusade could do this, not realizing they've got a goal without execution plans
  • ENTJs could easily think they've got the one right way to fix everything and yet lack "recruiting skills"
  • I also want to say that ENFJs who have a cause can see anyone who doesn't agree as dangerous to the community at large
  • And, INFPs somewhere into adulthood can take on a "crusader" persona, standing up for what they believe in in a catalytic (healthy) or fanatical (unhealthy) way

The other types usually wouldn't be as vocal...but there are always exceptions. And all of the ones mentioned above are examples of lack of type development--not the healthy ways these types would express their ideas.
 
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