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  1. #41
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    This is tough because I want to say the former, but my OCD has always made me categorize and systematize.

    If I said that I was having fantasies about categorizing and systematizing things, would that help? Because that would be the honest answer from what I can recall.

    I don't miss details, I'm hyper-sensitive to such. And I don't miss what other people need. I'm pretty aware of that as well.

    But the questions was, "What gets you in trouble more?" so I have to go with poor Fe. (On cognitive process tests, my Se and Si are both very well developed, so that might be the reason.)

    Yes. And it always feels manipulative, but I'm okay with that.

    I'm pretty sure that's the reason I started reading Jung originally - in order to figure people out so I could control situations that would otherwise make me uncomfortable, which stems from extreme introversion I'd imagine.

    The former, without a doubt.

    More? Hmm. . . the latter.

    I'm constantly planning toward the future - retooling, modifying existing plans, planning for anything and everything.
    If you were in a workshop I was running, I'd have you read the first 3 paragraphs in the INTJ and INTP chapters of LifeTypes to see if one rang true. If not, I'd ask you to join the T's rather than the N's in a couple exercises, and maybe let you float over after awhile.

    As I said, i know NTs in general can have S much more developed than we NFs because we're more concerned with whether we're helping people than with accuracy/competency. But as a dominant N, albeit one whose parents didn't interfere with imaginative play, I can't imagine not recognizing that as the dominant motivator of my childhood. It's being Ralphie in A Christmas Story and the little boy in The Salamander Room vs. being Commander Spock or Bean in Ender's Game...
    But...fantasizing over categorizing sounds like a little Ti figuring he could pretty much skip childhood and get on with making things work better.
    edcoaching

  2. #42
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Haight, your learning methodology (that you described in your example concerning the 'strike in baseball') is in much closer affinity with Ni-Te than Ti-Ne. This is the case because a dominant perceiving type (in this case Ni) is concerned wit collecting information thoroughly before making judgments. Introverted Perceivers (Ni and Si) tend to have their inner being defined by their perceptions, (because the introverted perceiving function is their strongest introverted faculty), and for this reason they tend to be very careful about the information they collect.

    Secondly, you mention that you plan far ahead and plan very carefully too, I infer. Introverted Intuition is the most abstract of all faculties and therefore most future oriented. INJs tend to be the most careful planners because their perception is introverted. Thus, as aforementioned, the success of the INJ's interaction with external environment is paramount (again because perception is obviously concerned with the external environment, as that is all that could be perceived), and because the INJ's inner being is defined by perceptions, such task is deemed to be the most important. Hence, Ni tends to have a very intense focus on what 'my future and my path shall be like', and this explains why Introverted perceivers (both Introverted Intuitives and Introverted Sensors tend to be highly security conscious).

    A type which is defined by Introverted Thinking and Extroverted Intuition would first of all be less concerned with collecting information carefully, but instead skip to making decisions as quickly and as accurately as possible in order to establish logical order. Very often the Introverted Thinking type establishes logical order too quickly, or in other words, makes decisions far too early, long before he has collected the adequate information. Secondly, the Ti-Ne type, tends not to see nearly as far into the future and less security conscious. The former is the case simply because he is much less intuitive than the Ni-Te type. The latter is the case because his strongest perceiving faculty is Extroverted rather than Introverted and for this reason his inner being is not defined by his perceptions.

    Secondly, you mention that you would read a book about baseball and talk to people who may be knowledgeable about the game before preparing your answer. This is much more akin to Te than Ti because in this case you are relying on external methods of inquiry, such as expert opinion and other means of interaction with the environment in order to solve your problem. An Introverted Thinking type on the other han would turn inwards for his critical analysis. (This brings our focus back to the previously established notion that the Introverted Thinker encounters the grave risk of incurring false beliefs due to lack of adequate interaction with the external environment). This is very reminiscent of how the rationalist philosophers of the 17th century (Spinoza, Descartes and Leibniz) thought that they could deduce the system which outlines how the world functions through pure contemplation. This is emblematic of the Ti oriented school of thought. The rival school of thought to theirs was that of the empiricists, who insisted that as much of our inquiry as possible must clearly correspond with the external world, in fact our thoughts, many of the radical empiricists held, are unsound altogether unless we find confirmation for them in the external world. They are 'sophistry and non-sense', as David Hume used to say.



    Finally, the last question you ought to consider is the following. His arguments lack the convincing power of reason. He can only profess or proclaim. His is the "voice crying in the wilderness." Psychological Types, P.402, Introverted Intuition.

    This quote of Jung points out that Introverted Intuition, much like Introverted Thinking resides deep within one's psyche and therefore often compells one to believe that there is much validity to the thoughts entertained by the person of this type. Introverted Intuition however, unlike Introverted Thinking, is a perceiving function, it merely entertains hunches, it does not systemize ideas. Thus, as a result, it gives one a strong hunch that they are right, but does not exactly know how to explain one's rectitude. This, is very uncommon with Introverted Thinking, as the foremost goal of such a function is acquisition of internal logical order.



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  3. #43
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    If you were in a workshop I was running, I'd have you read the first 3 paragraphs in the INTJ and INTP chapters of LifeTypes to see if one rang true. If not, I'd ask you to join the T's rather than the N's in a couple exercises, and maybe let you float over after awhile.
    .
    Man...I wanna go to one of your workshops, it sounds like fun!
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  4. #44
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    I'm inclined to agree in the round with Bluewing's assessment - I find his writing a little hard at times, but I think he's saying he sees Te-Ni in Haight rather than Ne-Ti. That's my take.

    I also find him remarkably similar to work with as a confirmed INTJ colleague of mine, who is :

    bright, intelligent, intellectually curious, blunt, a little socially awkward, always-right-even-when-he's-wrong, occasionally surprisingly gentle and considerate, gathers external facts to structure arguments/thought processes and brings his ideas out from within, and clashes a bit with me professionally due to the opposing functions. I like him though. My Ne hits his Te brick wall often, but it mostly works. I see the same things in Haight.

  5. #45
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Well...in my last post to Haight I was actually implying that further self-analysis probably wouldn't be helpful. Being a part of an experiential workshop carefully designed so that participants see the preferences in action often leads to far more self-awareness. When people can't make up their minds, I don't push it in workshop settings. Instead I ask them to "float" between the likely groups and often quickly they know where they'd feel most at home.

    In one problem solving exercise, for example, where the first step is establishing the facts of the situation and defining the actual problem to be solved, the dominant Intuitive group (split Ne and Ni if there are enough participants) usually quickly gloss over the facts and move on to possibilities without focusing in on one aspect/problem inherent in the situation. In fact, whatever facts they list are usually voted down by the dominant Sensing participants--they're assumptions, opinions, not facts.

    In contrast, usually someone in the dominant Thinking group has taken notes while I explain the problem situation (I purposely do it orally so that no one can go back and fact-check; makes the type differences more stark). There is considerable debate about what I said in an effort to bring clarity and many, many possible problem definitions debated before one is selected. It's the only group where discussion ever gets heated in this exercise. I have to remind them that this is a scenario, not a real life problem they have to solve.

    The dominant Sensing groups do get the most facts down, including things I didn't say but can be stated as facts when one considers known facts about such ideas.

    The dominant Feeling group almost always states their judgment of the situation as a fact and starts discussing how to persuade the idiots in the scenario see the error of their ways.

    ...and as for Jung, always remember that he was Ti, actually working from a rather limited data set as he developed his theory of psychological types--his failed relationship with Freud and the not-so-healthy people he counseled. A ton of work and observation and research and real-life application has since added to what is known about the types. Just as we reexamine Einstein and Newton and others who established foundational ideas as we learn more...
    edcoaching

  6. #46
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    My literature essays sound like bad INTJ practice, now that I think about it.

    Fucking details.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #47
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    My literature essays sound like bad INTJ practice, now that I think about it.

    Fucking details.
    Yeah, I had to write my dissertation with a matrix in front of me at all times as a reminder that I was logically proving something, not persuading. My chair actually took me through 20 pages of my text, line by line, until I got the difference. In self-defense, I was making my living as a writer at the time, in fields where persuasion is honorable and motivating, so not only was I operating out of preference but working against a very ingrained habit...
    edcoaching

  8. #48
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    "Quotes? Why do I need quotes? Quotes from the text can be misplaced and misleading! Haven't you read the book yourself, anyway? You know this stuff is true, or at least makes sense in some way, so why do I need quotes? Somebody who has never read this book before wouldn't know any quotes from it. For all they know, I could just be making them up! So why? Why quotes?"
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #49
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Thanks for your help, guys.

    Now I know the truth. But on the other hand, notta was right again. Can't win for winning!

    I do think it is difficult to type someone with OCD, or other such conditions - which is why I've never been sure where the type begins and the OCD end (and vice versa). Hence, I think an INTP with OCD is possible, but no one would ever believe they were an INTP. Does that make sense?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I do think it is difficult to type someone with OCD, or other such conditions - which is why I've never been sure where the type begins and the OCD end (and vice versa). Hence, I think an INTP with OCD is possible, but no one would ever believe they were an INTP. Does that make sense?
    Type and such things aren't necessarily intertwined. They stack. They are both aspects of your psyche, along with countless else.

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