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  1. #31
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I think I'm close to the truth.

    If you don't mind, let's do this: You ask me five questions and I'll answering them honestly and seriously. That will be hard on me, but I think this is important.

    Okay. . . go!
    Questions about like, what? And that doesn't count? I seem to be having trouble communicating with INT's tonight
    edcoaching

  2. #32
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Questions that I would answer which would help you/I determine if my wife and I are INTJs with weak Js, or INTPs with weak Ps.

    Likewise this will help me to determine the same of other folks that are inflicted with the same disease.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  3. #33
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Haight,

    When it comes to type it is important to examine your natural tendencies of thought, not your behavior. If you do the latter, confusion is likely to be incurred because the way we behave is often influenced by external circumstances irrelevant to our unconscious tendencies.

    If you're an Ni dominant, it is most natural for you to simply entertain ideas. Just have perceptions for their own sake, without the need to clearly see what they are.

    Ti dom on the other hand tends to think it is paramount to have logical order. Everything ought to be defined as clearly as possible. Clear reasoning is often the most important thing.

    Bottom line is, Ni inner life tends to be chaotic by nature, yet Ti inevitably strives to organize it based on logical principles.

    Hence, the question you ought to ask yourself is as follows. If you were to be solving a math or a philosophy problem would it be most natural for you to first brainstorm ideas of all kinds, collect all information, or would it be more natural for you to first and foremost get as clear of an understanding of the situation you're dealing with. Or perhaps closer to home, when you read a novel, is it most natural for you to envision all the possible ways the story may unfold as you keep reading, or to start thinking about ways to make sense of the story. E.G, to ask questions like what exactly is going on here, what seems inconsistent, and if something is inconsistent, how could I resolve the inconsistency
    to ensure the story makes sense, and so on. The former tendency firing up first and foremost is indicative of a natural predilection towards habits of mind associated with Ni, the latter is indicative of the prevalence of habits of mind associated with Te.


    You ought to think about what is most natural for you to do, not what you would do in that situation. This is so because there are many Ni doms who have been forced by circumstances to behave in a fashion more akin to Ti than Ni (for instance INTJs in academia) or the other way around.

    So the concept to ponder here is, the internal drive for logical order vs the drive to explore ideas by merely entertaining your imagination. One of the two is clearly prevalent in your psychic economy.

    An important concept to keep in mind is that type is a set of unconscious tendencies that have been solidifed and therefore persist. If you are an Ni dominant, unconsciously your mind most easily relies on Intuition (as described above), if you are a Ti dominant your mind most easily relies on faculties of dispassionate analysis.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #34
    heart on fire
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    What cognitive type is most likely to have "people miss the point" as their theme song?

  5. #35
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Questions that I would answer which would help you/I determine if my wife and I are INTJs with weak Js, or INTPs with weak Ps.

    Likewise this will help me to determine the same of other folks that are inflicted with the same disease.
    1. What developed first in childhood? Were you coming up with elaborate fantasies, imagining yourself as key characters in your favorite books? Or were you already puzzled by watching people and wondering how they could be so illogical OR categorizing and systematizing toys and thoughts about the world?
    2. What gets you in trouble more? Poor use of Se, as in missing details or overeating or overexercising or Fe as in accidentally missing what others need (this can be a bit tougher for NTs than for NFs to discern since NTs care more about getting details straight, that old competency thing).
    3. Have you ever tried to logically figure out how to deal with people? I know INTPs who have listed out what people do to show their love, for example, and then tried to in turn do those things so the other person feels loved. Build a matrix/model in their heads or on paper. At first it feels manipulative and then they see it working.
    4. If you are really stressed out, or have been obsessing on some thought process and want a total break, would you be more likely to get in a workout, overeat or mindlessly watch TV (INTJ) or uncharacteristically start sharing inner feelings with a total stranger OR suddenly get hypersensitive or overly emotional (INTP)
    5. Which stresses you more: dealing with details OR trying to manage others' emotions?
    6. Do your ruminations go toward plans for the future (INTJ) or blueprints for new models and ideas to shift thinking patterns of others (INTP)


    Note that these aren't about behaviors but are trying to get at developmental patterns. According to type theory, Ni would emerge first in INTJs (and I as a child was totally immersed in month-long fantasy games with the INTJ down the block who's now head of HIV research at some huge university...) and Fe/Te later. For me it was 6th grade--a clear memory of a bullying incident where I couldn't take what was happening. For Te that experience would be around wanting to take charge of something/organize it better or more logically.

    And, the other questions deal with inferior function. While I'm in the camp that doesn't think there's a fully set order of preference development, it only makes sense that your inferior is opposite your dominant since if your strength is seeing the forest, picking out those trees is a pain. And if your strength is objectivity and logic, then subjectivity and empathy seem, well, unintelligent as evidenced in many posts on this forum
    edcoaching

  6. #36
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What cognitive type is most likely to have "people miss the point" as their theme song?
    You mean, what cognitive type is most likely to have others miss the point they were trying to make?
    edcoaching

  7. #37
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    1. What developed first in childhood? Were you coming up with elaborate fantasies, imagining yourself as key characters in your favorite books? Or were you already puzzled by watching people and wondering how they could be so illogical OR categorizing and systematizing toys and thoughts about the world?
    2. What gets you in trouble more? Poor use of Se, as in missing details or overeating or overexercising or Fe as in accidentally missing what others need (this can be a bit tougher for NTs than for NFs to discern since NTs care more about getting details straight, that old competency thing).
    3. Have you ever tried to logically figure out how to deal with people? I know INTPs who have listed out what people do to show their love, for example, and then tried to in turn do those things so the other person feels loved. Build a matrix/model in their heads or on paper. At first it feels manipulative and then they see it working.
    4. If you are really stressed out, or have been obsessing on some thought process and want a total break, would you be more likely to get in a workout, overeat or mindlessly watch TV (INTJ) or uncharacteristically start sharing inner feelings with a total stranger OR suddenly get hypersensitive or overly emotional (INTP)
    5. Which stresses you more: dealing with details OR trying to manage others' emotions?
    6. Do your ruminations go toward plans for the future (INTJ) or blueprints for new models and ideas to shift thinking patterns of others (INTP)
    Veeery iiiiiiinteresting...

    I guess I seem INTJ most of the time except for under too much stress.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #38
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Hence, the question you ought to ask yourself is as follows. If you were to be solving a math or a philosophy problem would it be most natural for you to first brainstorm ideas of all kinds, collect all information, or would it be more natural for you to first and foremost get as clear of an understanding of the situation you're dealing with. Or perhaps closer to home, when you read a novel, is it most natural for you to envision all the possible ways the story may unfold as you keep reading, or to start thinking about ways to make sense of the story. E.G, to ask questions like what exactly is going on here, what seems inconsistent, and if something is inconsistent, how could I resolve the inconsistency
    to ensure the story makes sense, and so on. The former tendency firing up first and foremost is indicative of a natural predilection towards habits of mind associated with Ni, the latter is indicative of the prevalence of habits of mind associated with Te.
    . . . The former in both cases.

    One of the biggest problems that I have is my inability to go straight at the target. My process of answering questions - school and work - is very time consuming, but it makes me comfortable and it relaxes me because I know my process always works. For instance, I work around and around things while I slowly work my way to answering the question, whatever that question may be.

    I'll give you an example: If you gave me until Friday to explain to you what a strike is in baseball, I'd go through the following process:
    a/ Read a book about the history of baseball.
    b/ Learn about the best players to ever play the game.
    c/ Learn about the stadiums, equipment, etc.
    d/ Watch several games.
    e/ Talk to people that know about the game.
    f/ Then, once I feel a certain amount of aptitude, I'll re-read your question and answer it in about five minutes - somewhere close to midnight on Thursday.

    I have an inability to go Google the phrase, "What is a strike?" because I feel that I need to be knowledgeable about the subject prior to answering simple, basic questions.

    Yeah . . . it's a problem. I know it, but I can't change it.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  9. #39
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    . . . The former in both cases.

    One of the biggest problems that I have is my inability to go straight at the target. My process of answering questions - school and work - is very time consuming, but it makes me comfortable and it relaxes me because I know my process always works. For instance, I work around and around things while I slowly work my way to answering the question, whatever that question may be.

    I'll give you an example: If you gave me until Friday to explain to you what a strike is in baseball, I'd go through the following process:
    a/ Read a book about the history of baseball.
    b/ Learn about the best players to ever play the game.
    c/ Learn about the stadiums, equipment, etc.
    d/ Watch several games.
    e/ Talk to people that know about the game.
    f/ Then, once I feel a certain amount of aptitude, I'll re-read your question and answer it in about five minutes - somewhere close to midnight on Thursday.

    I have an inability to go Google the phrase, "What is a strike?" because I feel that I need to be knowledgeable about the subject prior to answering simple, basic questions.

    Yeah . . . it's a problem. I know it, but I can't change it.
    That strikes me as very Te... the desire to understand the structure so that you can think through the answer using Ni. An INTP would be less.... determined? Hmm.

  10. #40
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    What developed first in childhood? Were you coming up with elaborate fantasies, imagining yourself as key characters in your favorite books? Or were you already puzzled by watching people and wondering how they could be so illogical OR categorizing and systematizing toys and thoughts about the world?
    This is tough because I want to say the former, but my OCD has always made me categorize and systematize.

    If I said that I was having fantasies about categorizing and systematizing things, would that help? Because that would be the honest answer from what I can recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    What gets you in trouble more? Poor use of Se, as in missing details or overeating or overexercising or Fe as in accidentally missing what others need (this can be a bit tougher for NTs than for NFs to discern since NTs care more about getting details straight, that old competency thing).
    I don't miss details, I'm hyper-sensitive to such. And I don't miss what other people need. I'm pretty aware of that as well.

    But the questions was, "What gets you in trouble more?" so I have to go with poor Fe. (On cognitive process tests, my Se and Si are both very well developed, so that might be the reason.)

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Have you ever tried to logically figure out how to deal with people? I know INTPs who have listed out what people do to show their love, for example, and then tried to in turn do those things so the other person feels loved. Build a matrix/model in their heads or on paper. At first it feels manipulative and then they see it working.
    Yes. And it always feels manipulative, but I'm okay with that.

    I'm pretty sure that's the reason I started reading Jung originally - in order to figure people out so I could control situations that would otherwise make me uncomfortable, which stems from extreme introversion I'd imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    If you are really stressed out, or have been obsessing on some thought process and want a total break, would you be more likely to get in a workout, overeat or mindlessly watch TV (INTJ) or uncharacteristically start sharing inner feelings with a total stranger OR suddenly get hypersensitive or overly emotional (INTP)
    The former, without a doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Which stresses you more: dealing with details OR trying to manage others' emotions?
    More? Hmm. . . the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Do your ruminations go toward plans for the future (INTJ) or blueprints for new models and ideas to shift thinking patterns of others (INTP)
    I'm constantly planning toward the future - retooling, modifying existing plans, planning for anything and everything.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

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