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  1. #121
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    How does Ni and Ne interact between types?
    I have to write from personal experience on this one since my dominant is Ni and all but one of my professional colleagues prefers ENFP, dominant Ne.

    While I know that there's tons of stuff out there on the differences between Ni and Ne I see it as more timing and negotiation over processing together rather than totally separate animals. For example, if I'm meeting with an Ne and the purpose is clear--planning a training day, let's say--I've done my Ni before the meeting, getting my ideas straight, etc. I'm set to brainstorm and can even play off the external world and ideas. If I had no warning, then it's like we're on two different speeds. they'll start brainstorming and I'll have to tell them, "Go ahead. I'm thinking over here and will join in in just a few minutes." So it isn't that I can't feed into the conversation, but that I need to be in my introverted world first to get my head wrapped around it.

    Problems come when there's no understanding. Then the Nes will start pressing the Ni for input, often rapidly rephrasing their question or adding to their ideas, talking more, thinking that'll spur ideas for the Ni. Of course it does just the opposite, blocking the Ni from getting to the inner world and making those connections.

    What would be your opinion of the dynamic or interpersonal relationship between INTJ's and INTP's
    If there's mutual respect they can be powerful allies. The difficulty comes from reversing the attitudes and dominants. So INTJs plot and plan in the internal world, creating a great idea, and bring it to the external world with a rather finished aura. INTPs hear it, think about it and use their Ti to find the flaws, which they then voice through Ne in terms of ways to improve the INTJ's idea. Or, they might go straight to Ne and start adding to the idea/morphing it. The INTJ may a) resent it or b) start using Te to compare the critique to his/her schema for the world in which the idea is to work and be open to making the idea even better.

    If the INTP has the idea, chances are he/she grinds away at it in the internal world far longer than the INTJ did, not wanting to surface it to the external world until every point is decided. It'll sound often like a done deal when they finally voice it as well. The INTJ will usually start right in on flaws through Te.

    How would they collaborate in a work environment? what way can they contribute collectively? are their interesting benefits of working towards a goal with these two types?
    Good news is if there is mutual respect, then the critiques will happen in the mode of a good debate, not an undermining of the others' ideas. One trick is letting each other in on ideas when they're still in the formation stage so it's easier to influence the direction of the plan without tearing apart a substantial amount of work the other has done. Another is to openly share the nonnegotiables in one's ideas and ask for input in specific places.
    edcoaching

  2. #122
    Senior Member Travo7's Avatar
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    I don't know if this is an easy question, but I saw you mention in a different thread you were an INFJ enneagram 7:

    What, in your opinion, is the relationship between MBTI and enneagram. Also, how do would you interpret an INFJ enneagram 4w5?

    Thanks

  3. #123
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travo7 View Post
    I don't know if this is an easy question, but I saw you mention in a different thread you were an INFJ enneagram 7:

    What, in your opinion, is the relationship between MBTI and enneagram. Also, how do would you interpret an INFJ enneagram 4w5?

    Thanks
    My understanding of the Enneagram was formed by Helen Palmer's early writings, which stated that the best way to discover your Enneagram type was to hear stories and experiences from people of each type, through her book or seminars with panels of people, not from any assessment. And, by Pat Wyman who holds the same view of assessment.

    In Three Keys to Self-Understanding, Pat Wyman writes In reading about each Enneagram type, remember that these are defense strategies and by their nature can be negative. Look for affirmation and positive qualities in teh descriptors of your MBTI Core Self. You may meet yourself when you are not at your best in reading about your Enneagram type." She goes on to say that "As an infant or small child, each of us needs someone or something to protect us emotionally. The enneagram Defense System is dedicated to protecting the child by providing a variety of techniques and skills to cope with a hostile world. As the child moves into adulthood, the Enneagram Defense is still going strong, taking its duties seriously. And just like an immune system that is in overdrive causing physical damage, the Enneagram Defense can interfere with living a full life when it continues its all-out efforts long after its services cease to be helpful" (p. 72).

    So...Pat's counseling practice involves helping women (her chosen audience; the techniques would apply to men too) begin to recognize when they're operating out of their Enneagram Defense System rather than their true MBTI self. A lot of the Enneagram "tests" that are out there actually just pick up on the behaviors that really reflect Core Self and not the motivations of the Enneagram Defense System. For example I usually score closer to a 3 on various assessments, but through Pat's process of really digging into motivations (she teaches an online class twice yearly through Association for Psychological Type International) I learned I'm really a 7--my driving motivation is optimism, putting a positive spin on everything. This is really helpful as a defense system UNTIL it blocks me from taking necessary corrective action. Why get out of a bad situation, or confront someone, or analyze what you did wrong to avoid it if things'll always work out anyway--that's how it becomes a negative.

    Any type can be any Enneagram type--but there is more overlap between core and defense behaviors/motivations in some combinations than in others. Pat gives people a chart for their MBTI/Enneagram type that shows traits that are compatible and oppositional between the two. Some are quite compatible; other combinations are literally at war with each other, resulting in horrendous inner conflict when the chips are down. Example: ENFP free spirit with Enneagram 1 kicking in with rules and regulations.

    INFJ 4...first I'd go back to the source that gave that result and take a look as to whether it really is your Enneagram type--does it describe behaviors or motivations? E4 according to Pat's definition core motivation is "continually measure themselves against everyone they come in contact with in order to assess whether they are more different, more special and more unique than anyone else. The underlying drive of the Four is to be different and unique" (p. 66). That's part of INFJness, too, so just check out whether it's accurate as your defense.

    I don't have Pat's chart but I'd guess that INFJ and E 4 would be somewhat compatible. The danger with compatible types is not recognizing when your defense system has kicked in and you're not engaging in healthy behaviors. For example, a healthy INFJ can accept recognition for accomplishments and sees that recognition as a means to leverage receiving more resources/responsibilities in order to make a difference on some other endeavor. If the unhealthy E 4 kicks in, then that recognition becomes more important than accomplishing the goals themselves. Self-pity, sense of loss, pessimism and almost bipolar swings kick in, defending the "I need to be unique" drive with "No one recognizes how unique I am and it's all because they don't understand me." This defensive behavior of course halts proactive and healthy self examination about course corrections or how to adapt to have a better chance of succeeding in a given environment...but because INFJ and 4 are so close it can be harder to train ones self to note when one's motivation changes...
    edcoaching

  4. #124
    Senior Member Travo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    My understanding of the Enneagram was formed by Helen Palmer's early writings, which stated that the best way to discover your Enneagram type was to hear stories and experiences from people of each type, through her book or seminars with panels of people, not from any assessment. And, by Pat Wyman who holds the same view of assessment.

    In Three Keys to Self-Understanding, Pat Wyman writes In reading about each Enneagram type, remember that these are defense strategies and by their nature can be negative. Look for affirmation and positive qualities in teh descriptors of your MBTI Core Self. You may meet yourself when you are not at your best in reading about your Enneagram type." She goes on to say that "As an infant or small child, each of us needs someone or something to protect us emotionally. The enneagram Defense System is dedicated to protecting the child by providing a variety of techniques and skills to cope with a hostile world. As the child moves into adulthood, the Enneagram Defense is still going strong, taking its duties seriously. And just like an immune system that is in overdrive causing physical damage, the Enneagram Defense can interfere with living a full life when it continues its all-out efforts long after its services cease to be helpful" (p. 72).

    So...Pat's counseling practice involves helping women (her chosen audience; the techniques would apply to men too) begin to recognize when they're operating out of their Enneagram Defense System rather than their true MBTI self. A lot of the Enneagram "tests" that are out there actually just pick up on the behaviors that really reflect Core Self and not the motivations of the Enneagram Defense System. For example I usually score closer to a 3 on various assessments, but through Pat's process of really digging into motivations (she teaches an online class twice yearly through Association for Psychological Type International) I learned I'm really a 7--my driving motivation is optimism, putting a positive spin on everything. This is really helpful as a defense system UNTIL it blocks me from taking necessary corrective action. Why get out of a bad situation, or confront someone, or analyze what you did wrong to avoid it if things'll always work out anyway--that's how it becomes a negative.

    Any type can be any Enneagram type--but there is more overlap between core and defense behaviors/motivations in some combinations than in others. Pat gives people a chart for their MBTI/Enneagram type that shows traits that are compatible and oppositional between the two. Some are quite compatible; other combinations are literally at war with each other, resulting in horrendous inner conflict when the chips are down. Example: ENFP free spirit with Enneagram 1 kicking in with rules and regulations.

    INFJ 4...first I'd go back to the source that gave that result and take a look as to whether it really is your Enneagram type--does it describe behaviors or motivations? E4 according to Pat's definition core motivation is "continually measure themselves against everyone they come in contact with in order to assess whether they are more different, more special and more unique than anyone else. The underlying drive of the Four is to be different and unique" (p. 66). That's part of INFJness, too, so just check out whether it's accurate as your defense.

    I don't have Pat's chart but I'd guess that INFJ and E 4 would be somewhat compatible. The danger with compatible types is not recognizing when your defense system has kicked in and you're not engaging in healthy behaviors. For example, a healthy INFJ can accept recognition for accomplishments and sees that recognition as a means to leverage receiving more resources/responsibilities in order to make a difference on some other endeavor. If the unhealthy E 4 kicks in, then that recognition becomes more important than accomplishing the goals themselves. Self-pity, sense of loss, pessimism and almost bipolar swings kick in, defending the "I need to be unique" drive with "No one recognizes how unique I am and it's all because they don't understand me." This defensive behavior of course halts proactive and healthy self examination about course corrections or how to adapt to have a better chance of succeeding in a given environment...but because INFJ and 4 are so close it can be harder to train ones self to note when one's motivation changes...
    Thank you.

    You know, I really appreciate how you give names and faces to ideas. It's nice to know that there's always plenty of extra reading to do.

    Thanks again for the info and the personal input as well.

  5. #125
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Dear edcoaching,

    I am a little over halfway through a BA (mostly general ed at this point) and it appears I will be needing to go back to work in 2.5-3 years. I'm willing to go back to school, but I still do not know what I want to do when I grow up. Any suggestions on where to get help with this decision?

    Indecisively yours,
    Cafe
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #126
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Dear edcoaching,

    I am a little over halfway through a BA (mostly general ed at this point) and it appears I will be needing to go back to work in 2.5-3 years. I'm willing to go back to school, but I still do not know what I want to do when I grow up. Any suggestions on where to get help with this decision?

    Indecisively yours,
    Cafe
    The best resource on type and careers is What's Your Type of Career by Donna Dunning because it gets at what traps await each type in the job search and how you can use your personality to its advantage, as well as the usual career fit stuff.

    But usually the question is a bit bigger than type, which is why What Color is Your Parachute sells so many copies... There's a book called LifeKeys by Kise, Stark and Hirsh that helps you figure out your talents, type, values and passions, and spiritual gifts--It's Christian but I've had Catholics, agnostics, atheists, Protestants...all in the same room for a seminar and they're all comfortable with it because it's not about who's in or out but what you're meant to do...

    For a lot of NF's, contingency planning is a good way to go at careers because the ideal careers can be tough to break into--writing, fine arts, even a lot of communications or nonprofit management. For example, I started with a BA in English, still my first love. A boyfriend advised me to double major in business so I could get a job besides copyediting in some back office. My first jobs weren't all that ideal, but I got to write speeches and stuff along with the financial work and certainly paid the bills while I searched for a better fit, which I eventually found.

    I'm rambling a bit...NFs usually either have to find work that is personally meaningful or make enough $$ at some job (that at least doesn't go against their values) to fund avocations or even ways of serving others. I like Buechner's quote that you're called to serve where your great joy and the world's great needs meet...doing it for the $$ doesn't work well unless there's a clear plan. I think, for example, I could have handled becoming a CPA with some specialized application that'd let me choose my own hours so I'd have time to do what i want to do...

    If you go to your college career center make sure they're helping you look at a wide range of aspects of yourself. Talents, interests, type, etc. Not just a simple inventory or two and, "Well, all this says you should be ____."

    Hope this helps at least a bit. Good news is people who start college undecided usually graduate faster than those who know their majors their senior year of high school--because 17-year-olds don't know what the heck they're deciding on. General ed is good, gives you flexibility!!!
    edcoaching

  7. #127
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Thank you. I will add those books to my wish list.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #128
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    What type would be most likely to be (in an unbalanced state of course) super paranoid about people's personal motives and supersitious in these areas but capable of making balanced, rational decisions in the business world?

  9. #129
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What type would be most likely to be (in an unbalanced state of course) super paranoid about people's personal motives and supersitious in these areas but capable of making balanced, rational decisions in the business world?
    I would say...any of the types that use Introverted Thinking for decision making and haven't had the chance to develop Extraverted Feeling, which is the realm of being able to step into others' shoes, including determining motives. So, ISTP, ESTP, INTP, ENTP. In my experience, the ISTPs and INTPs can be uncomfortable exploring their own motives if they aren't being logical and haven't developed skills for dealing with their own emotions. This can lead to uncharacteristic emotionalism! ESTPs...they can have a tendency to take everything literally, missing sarcasm and other nuances, or assuming someone else's general mood is directed solely at them.

    All 4 of these types can have difficulty dealing, say, with the "normal" behavior of teenage girls, as in moody, thinking that the crabbiness means the girl doesn't like them. Whereas it's natural for Extraverted Feelers to share such problems ("Is your daughter/coworker/spouse/boss acting this way? You mean it's not just me? Whew!) Ti's tend to stick to their own internal schema about how others work. So, if anger=dislike in their brains, that's the motivation they'll attribute to anger.

    Of curse, as you say, this is if they haven't developed Extraverted Feeling skills. While all type have emotional intelligence skills they need to work on, I do think that the original impetus behind the work in that field was helping Thinking types learn Feeling skills
    edcoaching

  10. #130
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    I'm still a little unsure of my type and what functions I use most. I thought if I gave you a real life situation it might help you to point me in the right direction.

    Recently I have purchased a business. I made the decision to purchse within an hour of looking at the financials, assets etc... It did not feel like jumping in too quickly as I have been looking for an acquisition for the better part of a year and was fairly familiar with what was out there. This purchase also included movig three and a half hours from my current location and uprooting myself and fiance and child. The buiness on its own is fairly stable and profitable but I can never let anything stay as it is. Since actually taking control two weeks ago I have determined that I can expand the base of customers and areas of the business with a particular strategy. I have been recruiting subcontractors to fill certain niches that I am not very adept at in order to implement this strategy. My goal is to build this company into a large and diverse service business.

    If it helps: whatever I get involved in I am compulsively driven to grow, expand and build it up. I always dream big, perhaps too big, and my expectations may not always mesh with reality.

    Also I have been told by a very skilled counselor that I am an extremist.

    Any help you give is appreciated as I think understanding my preferred functions will definitely help me to grow as a person and better utilize my natural talents in areas of interest.

    Thanks

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