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  1. #91
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    Surely Melanie Hamilton is the soulmate of Ashley Wilkes? Margaret Mitchell described him as an Idealist and there's much discussion about how they discuss books and ideas and how simpatico they are. Scarlett is S, certainly, but why Melanie?
    The ISFPs I know are phenomenal bookworms.The females, one constantly turns to for advice about relationships. They stay behind the scenes yet everyone knows they're fonts of wisdom. INFPs, though...unless they're immature idiots like Ashley, often get more vocal as the years go on, taking stands or leadership roles in order to see their values come into reality. ISFPs are also known for personal loyalty and Melanie wouldn't let anyone speak against Charlotte.
    edcoaching

  2. #92
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    I'm not a counselor but as Tallulah said, keep thinking about the depression.

    As I understand learned helplessness it's when people give up because they don't see that their efforts are making any difference. They get zinged no matter what course they try. Learned helplessness, defined by Seligman (Learned optimism: How to change your mind and your life, 1998) as “… the giving-up reaction, the quitting response that follows from the belief that whatever you do doesn’t matter” (p. 15). His research with laboratory dogs showed that when the subjects had no control over shocks they received, they soon stopped trying and simply lay down once they realized their actions, such as jumping to get away, were futile.

    When helplessness in people was studied, the biggest factor contributing to it was a lack of hope.
    Whether or not we have hope depends on two dimensions of our explanatory style: pervasiveness and permanence. Finding temporary and specific causes for misfortune is the art of hope: Temporary causes limit helplessness in time, and specific causes limit helplessness to the original situation. On the other hand, permanent causes produce helplessness far into the future, and universal causes spread helplessness through all your endeavors. Finding permanent and universal causes for misfortune is the practice of despair (Seligman, 1998, p. 48).
    Another way to look at it is finding one's way out of learned helplessness is figuring out what you can control.

    I'm just supplying a definition here--it's something to be talked through with someone close to home who can help you sort it out. I wouldn't dare try to be more helpful than suggesting you seek out someone to help you with it.
    Thank you. That's quite helpful.
    I am not depressed anymore, but I still have the smell of the smoke in my clothes.
    I'm still recovering.
    I am investing in life again, so I know I'm on the other side.

  3. #93
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    The ISFPs I know are phenomenal bookworms.The females, one constantly turns to for advice about relationships. They stay behind the scenes yet everyone knows they're fonts of wisdom. INFPs, though...unless they're immature idiots like Ashley, often get more vocal as the years go on, taking stands or leadership roles in order to see their values come into reality. ISFPs are also known for personal loyalty and Melanie wouldn't let anyone speak against Charlotte.
    You mean Scarlett? Yes, that certainly applies.

    But Melanie wasn't just a bookworm; she believed in her husband who, as you say, was an immature idiot with his head in the clouds; she wasn't just loyal to him or admire him because he was her husband, she met him in the realm of the mind and dreamed the same dreams.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  4. #94
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    You mean Scarlett? Yes, that certainly applies.

    But Melanie wasn't just a bookworm; she believed in her husband who, as you say, was an immature idiot with his head in the clouds; she wasn't just loyal to him or admire him because he was her husband, she met him in the realm of the mind and dreamed the same dreams.
    ISFPs often do that in my experience--sharing dreams. They're very complex people but it's internal and because it's tied up in Fe, it's hard for them to express. I just think that if she were INFP, after the war you'd see her emerging as a different person...
    edcoaching

  5. #95
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    And yeah, Scarlett No more replying at 5:30 in the morning...
    edcoaching

  6. #96
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    Ed,

    I am trying to figure my type by looking at my earliest childhood behaviors as you have suggested. The most notable behavior that comes to mind is I was always on an adventure. In pre-school I was the lead superhero with my gang of cohorts. After that I formed a gang of ninjas who would walk the backyards of my neighborhood. I drew maps of the backyards so we would know our hiding places when things got "hot". I was also quite dominant over my peers. I could through manipulation or intimidation talk anyone into almost anything. One "lesson" I remember around fifth grade was when I decided I was going to try and be nicer to people instead of just controlling them. When I saw I was losing ,fairly quickly, what I mistook for respect I quickly reverted back to intimidation. Thankfully I have outgrown these behaviors but am wondering if you see a particular function emerging frome these patterns.

    Also, not sure if it is useful but when asked to draw three things we wanted when we were older in pre-school I drew a computer, a castle and a pile of money. These things actually have not really changed except for the fact that I have a computer now.

  7. #97
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Dear edcoaching,

    I got a new job which I start on Tuesday. My new boss is a female ESTJ.
    I'm convinced that I am incapable of pleasing her for very long.
    I need advice on how to stay off her bad side and stay on her good side.

    Is there anything they particularly hate about INTJs?

  8. #98
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Ed,

    I am trying to figure my type by looking at my earliest childhood behaviors as you have suggested. The most notable behavior that comes to mind is I was always on an adventure. In pre-school I was the lead superhero with my gang of cohorts. After that I formed a gang of ninjas who would walk the backyards of my neighborhood. I drew maps of the backyards so we would know our hiding places when things got "hot". I was also quite dominant over my peers. I could through manipulation or intimidation talk anyone into almost anything. One "lesson" I remember around fifth grade was when I decided I was going to try and be nicer to people instead of just controlling them. When I saw I was losing ,fairly quickly, what I mistook for respect I quickly reverted back to intimidation. Thankfully I have outgrown these behaviors but am wondering if you see a particular function emerging frome these patterns.
    The superhero stint ninja gang definitely is the Te ability to organize the external world--in this case your friends--and that NT combination when allowed to develop (i.e., the adults aren't punishing you for being "mean") has such confidence that other children simply follow.

    I would think around 5th grade the T would still be ruling but the N might have started spinning scenarios on the down side of your ability to control others? I know of older T's who have then tried to map out different behaviors that they think will have a better impact on relationships, based on careful observation of others and thinking through how they themselves like to be treated. Kind of a calculated use of Feeling. They tell me that at first it seems very manipulative, but then people start to respond. I could see how an ENTJ child might dream up some similar behaviors to be nice but it'd be so unnatural that they'd probably exaggerate/be vulnerable to Feeling types who do it better and give it up quickly. I know an ENTJ female who tried similar behaviors in 6th grade and ended up the victim of bullying because within her clique the little Feeling types knew exactly how to go for her jugular...
    Also, not sure if it is useful but when asked to draw three things we wanted when we were older in pre-school I drew a computer, a castle and a pile of money. These things actually have not really changed except for the fact that I have a computer now.
    Your "wants" to me echo the Te view of the world as a place where they can come out on top. At the same age I'd have somehow drawn a time machine and some sort of imaginary device (like a time machine isn't!!) that would let me live inside my favorite stories--a little Ni with no sense of the real world yet...
    edcoaching

  9. #99
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Dear edcoaching,

    I got a new job which I start on Tuesday. My new boss is a female ESTJ.
    I'm convinced that I am incapable of pleasing her for very long.
    I need advice on how to stay off her bad side and stay on her good side.

    Is there anything they particularly hate about INTJs?
    Congrats on the new job!

    A couple things to remember. Your auxiliary Te is her dominant function, so when you're communicating with her in the external world, she's in a sense got an advantage--she'll always do Te just a bit better than you. So...conscious effort on your part to categorize/think through if/then reasoning and every other way she might evaluate your ideas will serve you well. Her questions are going to constantly question your logic.

    Also, even though INTJs are driven by competency to deal well with details, she more naturally wants every single hole filled in on every thing you bring to her--and can start firing questions at you when you're still in the midst of trying to get the big picture laid out. She wants the details first, adding them up to see the big picture, while you want to lay out the big picture and get agreement, then fill in the details. Very tricky. Since you're the subordinate you obviously have to meet her needs. Sigh. Just Wednesday, an ESTJ told me how her boss (INFP) had just introduced a new initiative. She asked so many questions about it that he thought she was resisting and blew up at her. She was taken aback--she loved the idea and was trying to figure out how it would work through her questions. You've got the opposite dilemma because you can't blow up!

    Tips for persuading T's (From Work it Out by Hirsh and Kise:
    • Make sure you're talking in terms of objective, measurable criteria for decision making that can be fairly and consistently applied
    • Identify up front any flaws in ideas or processes--or possible concerns or critical paths
    • be consistent--that's more important than how anyone feels about anything
    • try to figure out her guiding principles
    • figure out the pros and cons in advance so you can preguess her arguments
    • You might also think about her Sensing needs--have the facts on hand and remember that past experience is her guiding light.


    So there's no inherent reason ESTJs might give INTJs a hard time but there are definitely communication issues. A lot of Thinking women in leadership roles have also been beat up a lot for their style, even if they came out on top, and can be very sensitive about any, even if only perceived, challenges to their authority--for example, a subordinate who is at least as intelligent as they are. So be helpful, organized, keep your facts in a row and accessible, and it could all end up fine as she learns how you're supporting her...
    edcoaching

  10. #100
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    She wants the details first, adding them up to see the big picture, while you want to lay out the big picture and get agreement, then fill in the details.
    That's a really good point and one that I run into a lot.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

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