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Cultural archetypes, stereotypes and modal types

edcoaching

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edcoaching, what makes you think MBTI statistics are accurate? They never made sense to me until I concluded that people who take MBTI have other motives than proper self-assessment and ISTJ is the "most common type" because people want to appear responsible.

There are two main sources for normed reference samples:
  • the database at the Center for Applications of Psychological Type. They've collected thousands and thousands of Form G results submitted by practitioners all over the place, from people working in multiple fields. In a ton of those fields, ISTJ isn't considered particularly responsible. Further, in high schools, where a lot of the early sampling was done, ISTJ is definitely NOT considered the way to be...In the CAPT database, I think ESTJ is the modal type--I can't find my old manual that shows it...
  • The National Representative Sample developed by the publisher of the official MBTI, CPP, Inc. When they created Form M in 1998, they performed a rigorous study using all the statistical gizmos to get as good of a sample as they could across education/income/gender/culture/career to correct for as much bias as they could. In this sample there are really 2 modal types since score ranges are shown: ISFJ and ESTJ.

I can also see evidence that a majority of people answer as they prefer, not as they think they should, when I look at results from people within specific careers--the data on how types cluster in careers is actually validity for the theory. And a lot of that data is on best-fit type: the types people select after going through training, not merely their reported scores.

In anticipation of a possible response (One of my major strenghts as ISTJ, er INTP):

I'd bet serious cash that I could come to your office tomorrow and test as ISTJ, as many people could and surely already have done without even knowing what ISTJ means, they simply put on the front of being a quiet, responsible fellow who follows orders.

I'm not so sure I could fool a socionics practitioner. Not that I would want to, I'd take the test, then we'd get some beers and talk socionics.

Official MBTI is antiquated and defunct.

Of course you could. It's a self-reporting instrument. I can come out any type too. Isabel Myers didn't think people would respond well to being told what they were, so she designed an interactive process. People are supposed to hear the theory, self-select preferences, then see their results and full type descriptions and then decide for themselves what they are. They are to take their "shoulds" off and answer as they prefer. The stats tests show that 75% of people agree with results and 90% with 3 of 4 letters.

The point of the instrument is to help figure out types faster so you can get on to interpretation. If I don't use the instrument with a group, I need about another 30 minutes to do some concrete exercises so people can "See" the preferences and decide which ones suit them best. If training is effective, by the end of the second day everyone appreciates the gifts of each preference, how all types contribute to a team, and why you'd only want to be yourself.
 
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Jack Flak

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I could see INTPs being comfortable testing as INTP if they are computer programmers. As ESFPs would be comfortable testing as ESFP in lingerie sales. But for most jobs, people consider the traits of the ISTJ to be desirable to employers, and therefore surely put that front on when testing, just as I've done (but for other tests than MBTI, and in interviews). That's why there are supposedly more ISTJs (and ESTJs: another lightning rod of a type, for leadership and people skills).

Of course you could. It's a self-reporting instrument. I can come out any type too. Isabel Myers didn't think people would respond well to being told what they were, so she designed an interactive process. People are supposed to hear the theory, self-select preferences, then see their results and full type descriptions and then decide for themselves what they are. They are to take their "shoulds" off and answer as they prefer. The stats tests show that 75% of people agree with results and 90% with 3 of 4 letters.
That probably has something to do with her being more NF and friendly than a good strategic thinker. If you're engaging in job placement based on type, it is generally inadvisable to let people self-assess.

I doubt she even had official capacities in mind when developing it, so the use of it there is further made to seem absurd.
 
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Haight

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But for most jobs, people consider the traits of the ISTJ to be desirable to employers, and therefore surely put that front on when testing, just as I've done (but for other tests than MBTI and interviews). That's why there are supposedly more ISTJs (and ESTJ is another lightning rod of a type, for leadership and people skills)
That presupposes that other types have the desire and capability to manipulate the test results in the manner you're presenting. I think most people that run into the MBTI test don't have the background experience and the foresight as to what the results mean so they don't come to it with a "plan" in the same way you do or might.

If the statement is that the test can be manipulated, then the answer is of course. But manipulating tests comes with experience with those tests.
 

Jack Flak

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That presupposes that other types have the desire and capability to manipulate the test results in the manner you're presenting. I think most people that run into the MBTI test don't have the background experience and the foresight as to what the results mean so they don't come to it with a "plan" in the same way you do or might.
As I stated up there, Haight, people know what makes an ISTJ more than they know what MBTI ISTJ is. They act like an ISTJ would, without having ever heard the four letters.
 

Haight

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As I stated up there, Haight, people know what makes an ISTJ more than they know what MBTI ISTJ is. They act like an ISTJ would, without having ever heard the four letters.
Right. I just don't believe that. Since if that were the case, then utilizing the test for business hiring practices would be useless, and known to be useless, therefore we wouldn't even be discussing it right now.

But of course, that's just my opinion. Carry on . . .
 

edcoaching

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I could see INTPs being comfortable testing as INTP if they are computer programmers. As ESFPs would be comfortable testing as ESFP in lingerie sales. But for most jobs, people consider the traits of the ISTJ to be desirable to employers, and therefore surely put that front on when testing, just as I've done (but for other tests than MBTI, and in interviews). That's why there are supposedly more ISTJs (and ESTJs: another lightning rod of a type, for leadership and people skills).


That probably has something to do with her being more NF and friendly than a good strategic thinker. If you're engaging in job placement based on type, it is generally inadvisable to let people self-assess.

I doubt she even had official capacities in mind when developing it, so the use of it there is further made to seem absurd.

Well, if it's being used for job placement, that's like using a lawn mower to snowblow your driveway. All the MBTI does is help people decide how clear they are about preferences. It doesn't measure skills or maturity or education. It's actually unethical to use it as a criteria for hiring--but beyond the ethics, it's stupid!!!

With motivation, people can succeed at jobs that at first glance seem unlikely for their type. In fact, since they may have a different perspective they may be the most valuable member of a team (unless the team shuts them down...but that's the subject o fother studies...)

It's a great tool, though for career exploration and management development. You can show people the careers that others of their type have found satisfaction in, help them understand what draws them to a specific career and whether they're willing to put up with being different from peers because of their motivations. Or, if they've got a clear idea of what the career involves (there are more people in dental school that don't get, for example, that it's all fine motor skills...).

And in management development...instead of accusing executives of faults, you can disarm them with typical developmental needs of people with their preferences and gain buy-in to skills development. But ANY type can be a great leader if they lead from their strengths. Research shows, though, that most F's opt out of corporate leadership because they can't get over the politics--why isn't everyone acting like they're on the same team? Why can't we just work together? How could anyone backstab? :huh:
 

Jack Flak

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Right. I just don't believe that. Since if that were the case, then utilizing the test for business hiring practices would be useless, and known to be useless, therefore we wouldn't even be discussing it right now.

But of course, that's just my opinion. Carry on . . .
I don't think it's use-less. I think it's flawed, and there are better methods of typing than the Official MBTI. And as stated, I fully believe the type distribution statistics of Official MBTI to be bogus. These are my cases.
 

Jack Flak

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Re: edcoaching: I think some 16-type system, probably socionics since they've done the most interpersonal and group-dynamic research, is an excellent tool precisely for job placement. I would love to be singled out and placed in an appropriate job with appropriate co-workers. The typing should be done by an expert, not the subject.

Again, for the several'th time, I just don't think Official MBTI tests are the way to go here.
 

edcoaching

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I don't think it's use-less. I think it's flawed, and there are better methods of typing than the Official MBTI. And as stated, I fully believe the type distribution statistics of Official MBTI to be bogus. These are my cases.

You're absolutely right. The best way of typing is guiding people through experiential exercises. It's more fun, too--I get to watch people fall out of their chairs as they see the real differences.

But so many people want quick answers. Paper and pencil. "How do I type my students?" I tell teachers they don't have to. They've got kids of every type in their classrooms and they need to start differentiating how they teach so some aren't always being force to do things that are a mismatch--especially if the kid is only 6 years old!
 

edcoaching

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Re: edcoaching: I think some 16-type system, probably socionics since they've done the most interpersonal and group-dynamic research, is an excellent tool precisely for job placement. I would love to be singled out and placed in an appropriate job with appropriate co-workers. The typing should be done by an expert, not the subject.

Again, for the several'th time, I just don't think Official MBTI tests are the way to go here.

Just don't confuse the instrument with the research and applications on what makes for good job placement or team dynamics. They're two separate things...

For example, Thursday I'll be taking a hundred school district personnel through a daylong workshop on collaboration. We're not using the instrument. We're instead going right to the heart of student learning with films showing S and N students doing math tasks where the differences are striking (How do I know the student types? They had 6 hours of interactive type instruction, chose for themselves, and verified it as they worked with the different learning style activities). By the end of the day, if the group is like all the other groups I've worked with, they'll "see" where their biases are and understand the preferences in a way that leads to new thinking about what students need.
 

Haight

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Ah, that's interesting.

So as Jack stated (in different words, of course), other tests could be better utilized and more accurate for job placement testing and employee hiring purposes, but MBTI is quicker and cheaper.

Given the short term thinking of corporate America in general, that makes a lot of sense to me.
 

edcoaching

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Ah, that's interesting.

So as Jack stated (in different words, of course), other tests could be better utilized and more accurate for job placement testing and employee hiring purposes, but MBTI is quicker and cheaper.

Given the short term thinking of corporate America in general, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Unfortunately it also leads to bad hiring decisions since again the MBTI says nothing about skills. The type association didn't give the MBTI to candidates it was interviewing for exec director. Instead we looked for evidence of administrative skills--training, past experiences, interview questions. The person we hired went through the 4-day MBTI training after he was hired and decided he's ESTJ but we could have hired other types with teh same skill sets...
 

Haight

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Yes, the failure of this thinking is self-evident.

But you'd have to hope that they (employers) are at least calculating this margin for error into their hiring practices and have concluded that it's acceptable - possibly based on lack of alternative information for whatever reason/s.
 

Jack Flak

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But you'd have to hope that they (employers) are at least calculating this margin for error into their hiring practices and have concluded that it's acceptable - possibly based on lack of alternative information for whatever reason/s.
Met many employers? That's a very unsafe bet.
 

edcoaching

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Yes, the failure of this thinking is self-evident.

But you'd have to hope that they (employers) are at least calculating this margin for error into their hiring practices and have concluded that it's acceptable - possibly based on lack of alternative information for whatever reason/s.

Or that the type police find them and coerce them into changing their evil ways...:yes:
 

edcoaching

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Re: edcoaching: I think some 16-type system, probably socionics since they've done the most interpersonal and group-dynamic research, is an excellent tool precisely for job placement. I would love to be singled out and placed in an appropriate job with appropriate co-workers. The typing should be done by an expert, not the subject.

Again, for the several'th time, I just don't think Official MBTI tests are the way to go here.

By the way, I've taken the quiz at socionics.com. is there another one? An INTP colleague and I were discussing how the average person might not handle the vocab well.
 

Jack Flak

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By the way, I've taken the quiz at socionics.com. is there another one? An INTP colleague and I were discussing how the average person might not handle the vocab well.
Socionics folk don't really approve of tests, much like myself. They have tests, to cater to those who like tests. (I'm not sure what you mean by "vocab").

By the way, I consider their functional analysis theories to be just as questionable as MBTI's. Since Keirsey doesn't use functions, I gravitate toward his work for the most part, but value socionics interpersonal research greatly.
 

edcoaching

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Socionics folk don't really approve of tests, much like myself. They have tests, to cater to those who like tests. (I'm not sure what you mean by "vocab").

By the way, I consider their functional analysis theories to be just as questionable as MBTI's. Since Keirsey doesn't use functions, I gravitate toward his work for the most part, but value socionics interpersonal research greatly.

The quiz I took had you choose adjectives you'd use to describe yourself and adjectives you'd never use to describe yourself. I came out INFp but thought a lot of the adjectives were great for English majors like myself but...

Functional analyses as far as order of preferences?

Don't you think Kiersey's awfully behavior-oriented?
 

Jack Flak

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The quiz I took had you choose adjectives you'd use to describe yourself and adjectives you'd never use to describe yourself. I came out INFp but thought a lot of the adjectives were great for English majors like myself but...

Functional analyses as far as order of preferences?

Don't you think Kiersey's awfully behavior-oriented?
I've taken both types of Socionics test, and always came out INTp, so they apparently work for me (this type has been confirmed by relationship analysis on my part). It's common for INFJ to equal socionics INFp.

Personally, I think functional analysis is completely unnecessary, even though it may have merit. Primary functions are generally fairly obvious if you pick one definition of a function, and one way to split the populace into eight categories a la Jung--But they aren't as apparent/observable as ones type anyway. I see all functions but the first as potentially out of order, and when people contemplate them they base their conclusions on what their preconceived notions of function order are. I have been guilty of this myself, of course.

I think Keirsey's beautifully behavior-oriented.


Add: I'm MBTI INTP, and socionics INTp, and my respective primary functions should be Ti and Ni. But by most definitions, I have almost no use of Ni. I don't like functional analysis because of problems like this, and because I find it extraneous. Just like Keirsey.
 
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