Cultural archetypes, stereotypes and modal types

[entropie]

How about we compromise: "got rich and famous, yet feels empty inside and can't help but to feel for the senile relatives back home"? Plus some rage.

That sounds familiar, I second it

 

[6sticks]

Since personality types are supposedly innate, then all this shows is the unreliability of the MBTI. It's not like the USA aborts fetuses who test INFP, and the Germans aren't genetically predisposed to birth ISTJs, Aryan propaganda aside.

 

[entropie]

okokok was just a general feeling

In the end we are all alone, not in the feeling of a society, aint we ?

 

[6sticks]

okokok was just a general feeling

In the end we are all alone, not in the feeling of a society, aint we ?

srite

 

[Gabe]

What I've always wondered is how much a country's type is based on the actual 'modal type' (just a hypothetical of if that existed. Because I think it's impossible to measure) or cultural history, or institutions, or what? Particularily, I often wonder if factors having nothing to do with people in said country (resources, existing government structure, different challenges). For instance, how the functions of academia make it very much a Theorist culture, even though the majority of professors may very well NOT be theorists.

What we know is that what I just mentioned occurs extremely often- Either people develop and accomplish things through a non-preffered function because of a real or percieved neccesity (e.g Freud's extraverted thinking) or engage in some compulsory version of a culturally-accepted function.

Anyway, what must be true is that a culture with a certian type does NOT have to mean that type is an actual modal type!

The other side of this, is, I wonder if at some point biology starts to respond to culture, and in that way a cultures type begins to actually become a modal type. (Hopefully not, although it wouldn't be the end of the world. *Living* requires all 8 functions, so that kind of evolution would have to always reverse eventually)

Have any of the experts been looking into any of that stuff?

 

[edcoaching]

Since personality types are supposedly innate, then all this shows is the unreliability of the MBTI. It's not like the USA aborts fetuses who test INFP, and the Germans aren't genetically predisposed to birth ISTJs, Aryan propaganda aside.

It isn't that there aren't INFPs in the United States--it's that the culture doesn't value their strengths as much as those of other types. People who've studied suicide rates postulate that the reason INFPs are 7 times more likely to attempt suicide in the United States than any other type is because the culture is opposite to their preferences...

What I've always wondered is how much a country's type is based on the actual 'modal type' (just a hypothetical of if that existed. Because I think it's impossible to measure) or cultural history, or institutions, or what? Particularily, I often wonder if factors having nothing to do with people in said country (resources, existing government structure, different challenges). For instance, how the functions of academia make it very much a Theorist culture, even though the majority of professors may very well NOT be theorists.

The archetypes don't seem to be built on modal type--other than perhaps the modal type of whoever takes control. You can figure out the archetypes of corporations, too, and very often there's a CEO component in newer companies as to what is honored. But the modal type may be different. At 3M in the early days of using type there, for example, it was common for every manager in a session to come out ESTJ and verify that as their type. Then in the halls they'd tell the trainer, "I'm really __ __ __ __ but I can't admit it..." The culture was that strong then.

What we know is that what I just mentioned occurs extremely often- Either people develop and accomplish things through a non-preffered function because of a real or percieved neccesity (e.g Freud's extraverted thinking) or engage in some compulsory version of a culturally-accepted function.

Yup. Culture changes the way we express type. For example, people who have extraverted Judging functions in Perceiving cultures (think South America) are much more relaxed about time and schedules than J's in J cultures.

Anyway, what must be true is that a culture with a certain type does NOT have to mean that type is an actual modal type!

Absolutely. See my opening example on France. The current US sample says the modal type is ISFJ by a hair. I think. I didn't pull out the manual to check...

The other side of this, is, I wonder if at some point biology starts to respond to culture, and in that way a cultures type begins to actually become a modal type. (Hopefully not, although it wouldn't be the end of the world. *Living* requires all 8 functions, so that kind of evolution would have to always reverse eventually)

Have any of the experts been looking into any of that stuff?

Mmmm, I think the consensus is behavior adapts rather than biology responds. For example, the samples we have (and they aren't perfect) from First Nations , just a few of them and the nations definitely differ, is that a majority prefer Sensing, just like in the United States. But for the Nations who have described their own archetypes, it's been Intuition. They theorize that as they fine-tuned survival skills, their minds turned to creating explanations for life and the universe and how things should be. Think of the phenomenal government system of the Iroquois nations and the abstract nature of their art (again, these are their examples--I don't figure out another culture's archetype...if I'm "following the rules")

I worked with the staff of an Ojibwe charter school. For each preference pair they discussed what their culture valued and concluded INFP. The principal looked at me and said, "And for 350 years we thought you were listening..."

 

[Haight]

So ec, do you have a link to stats or reports that would show me how MBTI population percentages are broken down by country?

Because . . . that would be interesting.

 

[6sticks]

It isn't that there aren't INFPs in the United States--it's that the culture doesn't value their strengths as much as those of other types. People who've studied suicide rates postulate that the reason INFPs are 7 times more likely to attempt suicide in the United States than any other type is because the culture is opposite to their preferences...

Maybe so. But if modal type changes from country to country then either personality type isn't innate or the MBTI is unreliable. Or, I guess, that the suicides really add up.

 

[Haight]

Maybe so. But if modal type changes from country to country then either personality type isn't innate or the MBTI is unreliable. Or, I guess, that the suicides really add up.

Who said that one's personality is 100% innate?

 

[6sticks]

Who said that one's personality is 100% innate?

In the "are you born with it?" thread

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression. That's why typing others is so difficult. We have a type but we learn behaviors (or end up OCD or psychotic or a robot or somehow dysfunctional or ostracized...)

So if types are innate then modal types only show the expressed behaviors favored by a culture, and not the true types. If the MBTI were more accurate in determining the true type, the percentages of, say, INTPs in every culture would be the same... once you factor in suicides, witch-hunts, and whatnot.

 

[Jeffster]

You might be on to something. Maybe America is so total extrovert that he doesn't think about that much before doing? It must be the extrovert among the countries...

America still ain't a person.

 

[nottaprettygal]

America still ain't a person.

Dude. It's an analogy.

 

[Haight]

In the "are you born with it?" thread

You missed my "100%" part:

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression.

The bolded part would make it less than 100%, if you get my drift.

Therefore, type is innate to a degree, but not absolutely innate. I say this because you created an either-or scenario when a third options exists.

 

[6sticks]

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression.

Expression isn't type.

 

[Haight]

I disagree.

 

[Jeffster]

Dude. It's an analogy.

I get that. But it's stupid to try to attribute a personality type to an entire country. Not all analogies are good analogies.

 

[edcoaching]

In the "are you born with it?" thread


So if types are innate then modal types only show the expressed behaviors favored by a culture, and not the true types. If the MBTI were more accurate in determining the true type, the percentages of, say, INTPs in every culture would be the same... once you factor in suicides, witch-hunts, and whatnot.

The modal types are supposed to come off of verified type, not reported (instrument type). Behaviors, not type, changes. For example my ENTP British colleagues are much more subdued than American ENTPs, but still more like others of their type than the other types in Britain.

Lots of genetic things vary by culture/country...

So ec, do you have a link to stats or reports that would show me how MBTI population percentages are broken down by country?

Because . . . that would be interesting.

No links...These are the only two official national representative samples.

US (From the MBTI Manual, CPP, 1998)
ISTJ 11.6%
ISTP 5.4
ESTP 4.3
ESTJ 8.7
ISFJ 13.8
ISFP 8.8
ESFP 8.5
ESFJ 12.3
INFJ 1.5
INFP 4.4
ENFP 8.1
ENFJ 2.1
INTJ 2.1
INTP 3.3
ENTP 3.2
ENTJ 1.8

UK also from MBTI manual
ISTJ 13/7
ISTP 6.4
ESTP 5.8
ESTJ 10.4
ISFJ 12.7
ISFP 6.1
ESFP 8.7
ESFJ 12.6
INFJ 1/7
INFP 3.2
ENFP 6.3
ENFJ 2.8
INTJ 1.4
INTP 2.4
ENTP 2.8
ENTJ 2.9

The samples from Spain, Germany, Ital, Netherlands, are too heavily weighted with business types to be anything near representative. They show more S's than N's, in all places. All over the world, managers are overwhelmingly TJ...

 

[Haight]

And just for the record, I don't think that is as much about genetics as it is about environment. I do think this factor is slight - as opposed to my wife, for example - but I do know and believe that it exists. But I understand why it's debatable.

 

[edcoaching]

I get that. But it's stupid to try to attribute a personality type to an entire country. Not all analogies are good analogies.

It can also be very useful. Say you want to win a presidential campaign. Knowing the culture has, say, an archetype around Extraversion and Sensing can help you plan your campaign--especially if you know the modal type is also ES. Here's what you'd do:

• Make a big deal any time your opponant seems to get more information and therefore change position--or if he says "This is a complicated issue and there isn't a clear-cut, always-works rule." Call him a flip-flopper.
• Kick the national security threat level up just before any important vote to remind the public that the country is safe
• Make the most of clear-cut decisions. Make them a virtue. Stay the course. You're either with us or against us. Etc.
• Focus on voter pocketbooks rather than global issues. For example--offshore drilling for immediate relief rather than remindingpeople that global warming is also an issue here and that in the past when we've rallied around huge challenges (think ABomb whether we should have dropped it or not or getting to the moon) we make it. Don't mention the tax subsidies you voted for that kept Detroit making SUVs far too long. Or, the fact that several alternative energy companies have packed up and moved to Europe recently where incentives are already inplace--one from Ohio just relocated 300 engineers to Germany
• Keep the focus on whether you as a parent have a choice in where to send your child rather thanon the bigger issue that for a democracy to function every child needs to be able to think
• Keep the focus present oriented. Like, focus on the "Surge" results. Not on the fact that we went in under false pretenses or that we destroyed the infrastructures of the country, creating enemies left and right.
• Make sure you point to titles like "community organizer" that aren't as well-defined as senator or representative or attorney or mayor so you can get people thinking that no leadership could have taken place in such a role

Don't think for a second that I'm saying S's are more vulnerable or idiotic than N's. It's just that by sheer numbers, not by % within the preference, idiotic S's outnumber idiotic N's...in this country...

And yes, I could quickly find ways the Democrats have similarly pandered to Sensing types in teh last elections, but their big, election-losing moves in the last two go-rounds were when they stuck to Intuitive rhetoric.

 

[Jack Flak]

edcoaching, what makes you think MBTI statistics are accurate? They never made sense to me until I concluded that people who take MBTI have other motives than proper self-assessment and ISTJ is the "most common type" because people want to appear responsible.

In anticipation of a possible response (One of my major strengths as ISTJ, er INTP):

I'd bet serious cash that I could come to your office tomorrow and test as ISTJ, as many people could and surely already have done without even knowing what ISTJ means, they simply put on the front of being a quiet, responsible fellow who follows orders.

I'm not so sure I could fool a socionics practitioner. Not that I would want to, I'd take the test, then we'd get some beers and talk socionics.

Official MBTI is antiquated and defunct.