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  1. #41
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Maybe Ts that are ranting want advice, I dunno. I don't think Fs generally do. Unless they ask, but maybe not even then. Fs, I think, want to bleed off some of the emotion so they can think clearly themselves (they don't need you to think for them), to hear themselves out so they know what they are thinking and feeling and it helps to have someone to listen because then it doesn't feel so much like you are talking to yourself and you can maybe believe that someone cares about what you're feeling, or for you to was the dang dishes.

    Once they have vented, sometimes it's okay to brainstorm with them.

    But honestly, if there is anything more annoying than for some idiot to try to solve your problems for you when you are trying to vent, I don't know what it would be. God, how patronizing can you get??
    This is part of the STFU process here but from the other side.

    You see similarly when a person is being emotional around an F they can tend to empathise and get caught up in it, a T will get caught up in a persons thinking. It gets difficult when someone is explaining something like a problem to NOT get involved and try and sort out a solution for/ with them. Similar to if someone goes through a trial/ tragedy it's difficult for an F not to feel upset when the other is in tears.

    Imagine this... a person is confused and is "venting". Your a T. Their thinking is now invading your brain. You are now partially confused as a person with empathy would be upset. Now you want to remove this confusion almost as much as the original person does. So you feel compelled to try to solve this problem.

    The reflex can be overcome but one helpful step is to learn to mentally say STFU to the person venting. Similar to an F who must recognise exterior influences on their mood and attempt to ... well prioritise, a T must learn the same with thought and so when someone is venting and no solution will sate their thirst for negativity then you should try to reduce the impact of this external source of thinking.

    (Note. This is probably coming out a little malformed and unrefined so please excuse the wholes in the thinking.. I'll try to fill them in later.)
    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    Xander ~ in reading your last response I can't help but get the feeling that you're talking specifically to INTP's b/c there is so much 'information' in that post that it's hard to wade through it all. Hard to not look at it personally and hard to bite your tongue and move forward. It was a difficult read is what I am saying.
    Ah. Yes I'm afraid I can do that on occasion. I can see the larger picture but lack the ability to break it down sometimes. Hence you get quite a complex picture with connections all over the place. You should see my database designs

    Oh and it's phrased in quite a clinical and deliberate way not to antagonise or annoy but simply to try and make things clear.

    They are presented as rule for one major reason, that makes the clearest picture. However, as I've recently realised, rules are not as hard as they may seem. The only difference between a rule and a guideline is in the recognition of variables. A guideline sets out the preferred or optimal path and often gives situations where a variation or contradiction of the guideline should be employed. A rule makes no such definitions and yet has to be taken as a guideline because as has been proven, in regard to interaction, there are no rules which do not bend and break. As such those specific four stages should be seen as premises, principles and guides. If applied in specific and without regard to context or subject then they're practically useless.

    Perhaps if I phrased like so..
    What's troubling you?
    Why does that mean so much to you?
    Can I help you to solve this trouble or would you prefer I just listen for a bit?

    Is that a better way of phrasing the theory?

    That's not meant in a patronising manner btw. I'm just .. well doing what everyone does I guess. My position is best and that is to view ideas and concepts without prejudice. Ergo I try to get others to do likewise. If I didn't do this then I'd be uncaring about their perspective as I wouldn't be trying to get them to the same level of achievement as myself (indulge me here, I know it sounds incredibly arrogant). If I didn't believe that it was the best approach in the whole world then I wouldn't do it myself.

    I could have given a hundred different reasons why I was being benevolent and such but realistically that's the base motivation.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You see similarly when a person is being emotional around an F they can tend to empathise and get caught up in it, a T will get caught up in a persons thinking. It gets difficult when someone is explaining something like a problem to NOT get involved and try and sort out a solution for/ with them. Similar to if someone goes through a trial/ tragedy it's difficult for an F not to feel upset when the other is in tears.

    Imagine this... a person is confused and is "venting". Your a T. Their thinking is now invading your brain. You are now partially confused as a person with empathy would be upset. Now you want to remove this confusion almost as much as the original person does. So you feel compelled to try to solve this problem.
    Oh. That's interesting -- I hadn't flipped that pattern around mentally yet, you've made a very good point. Thank you.

    And yes, it's what happens. When someone throws something like that out, my mind immediately leaps around all the possibilities of resolution, it's like a whole "picture" of the problem is locking quickly into view.

    Since I introvert, it's easier to not let that viewpoint slip out early, and I've had to train myself to keep my mouth shut and try to introspect from inside that person's shoes, as another way to approach the situation. (I.e., not just as an impersonal problem to resolve / puzzle to complete, but as a story told from the other person's POV and how can I help resolve it or alleviate their stress in the way that makes the most sense or is most appropriate from their narrative POV?)

    The problem-solving thing is immediate, though; I've trained the empathy thing to follow close on its heels. But it's still hard in a situation where the solution seems unavoidable and the person just seems locked in some overwhelming emotional response that they won't let go of... but they can't resolve the problem any other way than by letting go of that response and tackling the solution. I have much patience, but I just want to throttle people in that situation.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh. That's interesting -- I hadn't flipped that pattern around mentally yet, you've made a very good point. Thank you.
    Oh now this is where I enter the unreasonable duality mode. Firstly annoyed, as I was trying to get this across originally and failed/ met with resistance, and then second happy cause I always do when I get a pat on the head for my work. Damn I hate being a sap for the positive goo. Still life would be boring without it...
    Oh yeah tangent.. right.. carry on...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And yes, it's what happens. When someone throws something like that out, my mind immediately leaps around all the possibilities of resolution, it's like a whole "picture" of the problem is locking quickly into view.

    Since I introvert, it's easier to not let that viewpoint slip out early, and I've had to train myself to keep my mouth shut and try to introspect from inside that person's shoes, as another way to approach the situation. (I.e., not just as an impersonal problem to resolve / puzzle to complete, but as a story told from the other person's POV and how can I help resolve it or alleviate their stress in the way that makes the most sense or is most appropriate from their narrative POV?)

    The problem-solving thing is immediate, though; I've trained the empathy thing to follow close on its heels. But it's still hard in a situation where the solution seems unavoidable and the person just seems locked in some overwhelming emotional response that they won't let go of... but they can't resolve the problem any other way than by letting go of that response and tackling the solution. I have much patience, but I just want to throttle people in that situation.
    You know I've tried that. I get quagmired either in my inner doubts as to whether I'm trying to approach it as they are or as my limited perception of their approach dictates I do (kind of my interpretation of them) or I get my head bitten off for not sitting there and just thinking it and trying to apply it.


    The odd thing is that time and time again I get proved right eventually and yet my approach seems doomed to failure. I can approach a T and get them to see what I do (usually after hours of tangential arguments) but an F... I don't stand a chance. Never found out why. I meet all the prerequisites and still I'm not allowed to be a Paladin of Feelingness... bloomin biased DMs is what I say!!! :steam:
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #44
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Um . . . I really only expect my INTP to listen enough to get the gist of what I'm saying. He is perfectly welcome to tune me out and let me go on ranting while he pretends to listen. He's always been wonderful about it. I wonder if it's as hard for him on the inside as it is for you two.

    Edit: and Xander, don't you have a block function? I had to develop an empathy block function at a pretty early age in order to survive. Don't other types have to do similar things?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #45
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Perhaps if I phrased like so..
    What's troubling you?
    Why does that mean so much to you?
    Can I help you to solve this trouble or would you prefer I just listen for a bit?

    Is that a better way of phrasing the theory?


    For me personally that is so much better *sigh*


    Cafe ~ A blocking function? To drown out your 'f'??? As a child I was sure that people would have guessed me to be an introvert, it's the only way I could survive and make sense of my life.
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
    Jung Test Results
    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  6. #46
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I wonder if it's as hard for him on the inside as it is for you two.
    Here is one recent good example of the T/F divide in a situation like this:

    A few weeks ago, my almost-11 ESFP son had to drink a gallon of liquid to remove the constipation blockage in his gut.

    The liquid tasted awful even with artificial flavoring added, and he couldn't bring himself to drink it by mouth, it just sickened him.

    But the only other solution was to run a tube down his nose and pump it into his stomach, bypassing his taste buds.

    If he did neither of those things, he'd have to go to surgery and be put under (which was really just out of the question... I mean, an invasive surgery??) and things would just be REALLY ugly.

    But he kept crying and crying and working himself into an emotional heap. He didn't want to drink the liquid. He also didn't want the tube. He wanted to just avoid both options, and kept trying to find a way out of the situation. (That's what he does in general: When there's something he's scared of or doesn't want to do, he will stall and beg and cry and try to avoid it, hoping that things will change. And when he was a kid, he would psych himself up all the time to throw up during meals he didn't like -- I know it was mental, because if we "hid" the food or pill inside something else, he was perfectly fine.)

    I understood it was NOT fun, just very gross and painful, and I really empathized with him... but the bottom line was that there was no way OUT and he had to just suck it up and go forward. he couldn't eat. He was in pain all the time. The blockage had to be removed. There were no other options, this liquid was the BEST option he had to him; and his emotional craziness was just making it harder and harder for him to do that and for me to support him and encourage him.

    The nurse was the sweetest, kindest person I could ever imagine -- very realistic, but just so compassionate -- and when she ran the tube down his throat, he was so worked up he threw up all over the place (like he had promised he would do if they did the tube down his nose)...

    And I was just seething inside; I felt awful for him, but I also wanted to throttle him. I resented his emotionalism and how hard he was making this for himself AND for everyone else in the room. I just wanted him to accept the inevitable and just make an effort. It was just such an ugly emotional mess.

    Meanwhile, his ISFJ mother could sit there calmly, hold his hand, and cry along with him because he was suffering.

    I just cannot do what she can do. I am not built that way. I try my best to empathize and be understanding of feelings, but at some level I start to get angry in situations like that and just want people to get a grip, face the truth, and move ahead. Because that's the only way to get through it, and the sooner the better. It's okay to be scared, but what is the use of getting oneself so worked up, you hinder any solution?

    Sigh. I wish I could deal with things like that better, but I just can't after awhile.

    (PS. Once they got the tube in and did the liquid, and got the tube back out, he was immediately fine. Goofball.)

    Sorry for the diversion from "All things ENFP" -- but it does show how difficult it can be for a T and F to understand/deal with each other.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #47
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Here is one recent good example of the T/F divide in a situation like this:

    A few weeks ago, my almost-11 ESFP son had to drink a gallon of liquid to remove the constipation blockage in his gut....

    Sorry for the diversion from "All things ENFP" -- but it does show how difficult it can be for a T and F to understand/deal with each other.
    I don't find what you were feeling/thinking hard to understand at all. It makes perfect sense, but it doesn't really help anything because making sense has nothing to do with a frightened child. *remembers biting a male nurses head off in the ER over something similar * That doesn't keep me from wanting to throttle my sons when I wash their hair and they are thrashing around like I'm trying to drown them which gets soap in their eyes . . .
    Last edited by Bellflower; 06-20-2007 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Snipped lengthy quote
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #48
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Jennifer reading that makes me think more and more that my daughter is an ESFP rather than an ENFP..... that emotional tizzy till she makes herself sick for nothing is all too familiar.
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
    Jung Test Results
    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  9. #49
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't find what you were feeling/thinking hard to understand at all. It makes perfect sense, but it doesn't really help anything because making sense has nothing to do with a frightened child.
    That was exactly it. I didn't SAY anything about how I was feeling and tried to be encouraging, and I knew that it had nothing to do with making sense; but it was very very hard because emotionally I was just getting more and more frustrated.

    He was coming at it from, "It hurts, so I won't do it!" (emotional) And for me it was, "It has to be done, the alternatives are even worse and MORE painful... so the pain has to be accepted." (thinking)

    (As a counterpoint, my INTP son would have done fine and acted much as I would have; and my INFJ daughter would have just "sucked it up" even if she would have been upset. But the histrionics thing and refusal to face what needs to be done...? Well, I can't take it very long.)

    What happened was that one of us had to go home to get the other kids off the bus, so I was designated for that task.... it was one I could handle.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    There's a hell yeah from me here. I may well be a 9 but there's a limit to how much I will allow a persons ego (that's how I see the process of overriding the facts of the situation with emotion, to be honest) to go before I'll either cut loose or walk away.

    Oh and Targo, thanks. I am trying to become better in my manner of address to such things but I'm still finding it difficult to address all types at once. Now all I have to do is realise why those words work better... that could take a while
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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