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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I'm sorry, I've heard this tactic before and it's just so not beneficial for ENFP's. It shocks me, really.
    Miscommunication.

    #1 What. = Discuss with ENFP about what going wrong. Full discussion.
    #2 So what = Discuss what this all means to the ENFP and try to locate their perspective so you can understand/ empathise better.
    #3 What now = Discuss what can be done to move forward, if anything.
    #3a STFU = Sometimes no route forward will be accepted. No resolution will be accomodated and yet the stress will continue. At which point STFU may be necessary. To avoid it can lead to cosseting. You know this.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Miscommunication.

    #1 What. = Discuss with ENFP about what going wrong. Full discussion.
    #2 So what = Discuss what this all means to the ENFP and try to locate their perspective so you can understand/ empathise better.
    #3 What now = Discuss what can be done to move forward, if anything.
    #3a STFU = Sometimes no route forward will be accepted. No resolution will be accomodated and yet the stress will continue. At which point STFU may be necessary. To avoid it can lead to cosseting. You know this.
    Oh!

    I know what you're saying, it's still a very impersonal "T" way of dealing with an ENFP. They have the ability to think objectively too, they can do that on their own. When they're talking to a friend they need the compassion and empathy more than anything else.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I agree with Gen. In fact, this sort of approach can even be generalized out to a T/F difference.

    In general, Feelers need to deal with their emotions and reconcile the conflicts before being able to implement a solution; a few types CAN stuff the emotions down but you will pay for it later and so will they. Thinkers usually just set the emotions aside (and can do so), in order to resolve the problem, then catch up to their feelings later if they can't just ignore them.

    Telling a Feeler to just "suck it up" and/or set the feelings aside is probably the worst mistake that Thinkers make. (The worst mistake for Feelers is either beating around the bush too long and not giving the Thinker the blunt honest feedback they need, or else making the conflict so personal that the Thinker can't think straight anymore and either has to pull out or engage in a personal-level fight.)

    When I talk to Feelers, I try very hard to always deal with the feelings first, or at least try to show I'm empathizing. But you have to get the feelings thing dealt with. They run off their values. If they are forced to ignore their values repeatedly, they get more and more angry or more and more depressed. It's NOT a good long-term solution to tell them to just "suck it up."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    If I'd actually said that you should curtail anyone's emotions you may have a point.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xander
    #3a STFU = Sometimes no route forward will be accepted. No resolution will be accommodated and yet the stress will continue. At which point STFU may be necessary. To avoid it can lead to cosseting. You know this.
    This is the step I have issue with. It works for a T. You don't have a choice with F's -- they have to somehow come to terms with the value conflict. This "coming to terms" *could* simply include a decision by the Feeler that their values are telling them it's most important to keep going, or that they can endure the conflict for a cause or a particular person... but they still have to be able to justify it, value-wise.

    The rest of your steps, btw, still seem to be couched in "Thinker's" terms.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    When I deal with ENFPs, I find them either overly placatory about their values or overly aggressive with their values, depending on where they are at.

    I admit, sometimes I am just not sure how to interact when it comes to an ideas discussion or problem resolution. (The best times I have with an ENFP are when we are just making each other laugh, having a good time, or creating things / speculating together.)

    1. They seem to be sensitive about their personal values and expect me to be the same way, so they shy away from certain personal exposure. I have to take the initiative and open up certain personal topics, so they feel like it is okay to go there.

    1a. If I was approaching THEM on an issue, I would first learn what the value problem is that is preventing them from resolving the issue at hand. I would have to approach it gently and kindly, but not beat around the bush. (Just gentle prying open of the clam. )

    2. If I see some plausible solutions, I try to reinterpret the situation into "patterns" or create metaphors that resonate with the values I know they already hold. A metaphor doesn't have to be logically justifiable; it just has to resonate thematically for an ENFP to find value in it, usually. [This was a hard one for me to understand. I need some sort of logical connection, otherwise it just feels like "fluff" to me even if to them it is not.] Metaphors/Patterns seem to be very powerful for ENFPs, probably due to the Ne.

    3. Couch the solution in terms of how the solution can benefit the people whom the ENFP values.

    But really, I just try to listen first and get them to talk about what they're feeling and thinking, because all of that has to be dealt with before any solution can occur.

    This is similar to some of your steps, but just feels like a more personalized approach to me. Are there other things that could be added to it?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
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    Seems to me that ENFPs mainly just want to be heard out. Xander's steps 1-3 sound reasonable to me, in that they give the ENFP ample opportunity to air their grievance and explore angles for addressing the problem.

    I would just change step 3a to "Agree with them." IOW:

    "Whoa, yeah, that sucks. Sounds like you got a bad deal. Life really is a bitch sometimes. Too bad that people can't make the extra effort to be nicer."

    I know it sounds patronizing. But again, ENFPs mainly just seem to want to be heard. They usually accept that life is tough and most problems can't be mended, and they'll move on once they've aired their grievance properly. If you sympathize, you're indicating you heard and understand, and that will give them closure.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    FL

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I find this type most difficult to deal with. They seem to have as many strands of thinking/ feeling going on as I do but with an orchestra of values and supposed tos attached to it all. I feel like I'm tweaking the strands of a spiders web when I speak to them and try to be of help or be friendly. Honestly I tend to end up treating them like paranoid little buggers even though I know they are about the nicest people on the planet!

    Anyhow I had a discussion with my father one day on how to deal with an ENFP with a problem. I'll try to relay.

    #1 What?
    #2 So what?
    #3 What now?


    #1 - Establish what is wrong.
    #2 - Establish why this is a problem.
    #3 - Ask them what they intend to do about it.

    Apparently though if the circle does not work and all suggested solutions (step #3) are batted away then there is a step #3a which goes something like "well shut up about it then", based on the theory that on rare occasions an ENFP will rant and rave to vent but will end up taking everyone else with them into this emotional turmoil. Only ever done unwittingly (in my personal experience) it is still destructive.

    Note :-
    I realise that any ENFP reading this is liable never to talk to me again but I hope it's helpful none the less. Comments welcome.
    When you do this with me Xander, we get into fights, and then the fights eventual stop, they stop because I value your friendship more than trying to get you to understand exactly how I work, Apparently T like the blunt honest truth; most of our fights hurt me deeply, I let them go cos I'd rather that than a serious break develop. Honestly I 'feel' like it is always me that bends or gives in to resolve a dispute, even if it is about what is depressing me or hurting me.

    Telling an ENFP to 'stfu' when they are in the whirlwind of trying to work out what the least bad solution is, or are jsut vent will make them respond with anger every time, unless they consider that they are being foolish. several times I've felt you don't take how I'm feelign seriously when I'm in a real stressed state it seems you find it something to endure and ignore and then you'll try to help ince the silly ENFP has calmed down and is rational again. I'm jsut being hoenst here Xander, no malice or spite or resentment. In most of our most bitter desputes, I feel (that doesn't mean it's objectively accurate) that I have had to swallow my pride, hurt, or some other thing to avoid us seriously disagreeing.

    An ENFP needs to feel like their friends are on side, that they can understand that even if it is a triffle thing it is causing the enfp alot of pain at that moment, and whether the friend thinks its proportionate or not is irrelevant, your setps are fine, but when most enfps get into the messy state that the forth point implies it's because they have gone through the other three and found no answers, at this stage they want new suggestions and sympathy. The worst thing you can do is belittle the problem until th eenfp is back inside their skull again, then they can laugh at their own overblownness.

    Not sure this was worth posting really, I always thought you knew all this?

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    ...In most of our most bitter desputes, I feel (that doesn't mean it's objectively accurate) that I have had to swallow my pride, hurt, or some other thing to avoid us seriously disagreeing...
    :sad:

    [gently] Your willingness to keep things open between you two and help the relationship endure is a good and valuable thing...

    ...But maybe you should kick his You-Know-What once in awhile, so he doesn't mistake what's going on?

    Xander's a TP. He can handle it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    :sad:

    [gently] Your willingness to keep things open between you two and help the relationship endure is a good and valuable thing...

    ...But maybe you should kick his You-Know-What once in awhile, so he doesn't mistake what's going on?

    Xander's a TP. He can handle it.
    Well, I don't know, Xander and I go way way way back, it's hard to change the pattern of behaviour, I always thought he understood what was happenign and that it was ok, left unspoken but nowadays I'm not so sure, it matters little really, we manage to get along and stay relatively close.

    Not as close as we were, when I try to help him, it goes very wrong, so I don't try anymore, makes me feel bad being a 2 as all I want to do is help.

    Known him so long I call him a brother really, and I do love him in a not fondling each others genitals kindaway...

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