User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 27

Thread: STs and SFs

  1. #1
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Posts
    6,020

    Default STs and SFs

    Why are Idealists/Rationalists grouped together using their core functions "NF"/"NT" (respectively), and the Artisans and Guardians aren't??

    This is probably a common question but I haven't seen it explained anywhere.

  2. #2
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Keirsey tried to map the ancient temperaments to the MBTI types, and since temperament theory and type theory had different frameworks, they did not map symmetrically (such as them agreeing on the factors of S/N and T/F, or J/P, so that temperament would always match either core functions, OR function attitudes, which is the case for SJ and SP.

    Temperament is behavioral, while type theory is cognitive (perception and judging, somewhat like input and output on a computer), and behavior will be shaped differently depending on the preferred mode of perception.
    So the sensing or "concrete" temperaments are determined by the attitude of Sensing (i or e, determined by J or P). iNtuitive or abstract temperaments are determined by the judging function intuiting is paired with.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  3. #3
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    TiSe
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Why are Idealists/Rationalists grouped together using their core functions "NF"/"NT" (respectively), and the Artisans and Guardians aren't??

    This is probably a common question but I haven't seen it explained anywhere.
    Actually Myers-Briggs does group them as ST-NT-SF-NF in her book Gifts Differing. Keirseys work is an expansion of the centuries old theory on temperament, combined with his study of Myers-Briggs work.
    Something of interest is the next time you look at Keirseys descriptions for the SPs, in particularly the introverts, compare them to the descriptions for the other introverted types in particularly INT and INF. Notice that he describes the former using their auxiliary function and the latter using their dominant function although ISPs and INPs both use the same respective dominant functions(Ti/Fi).

  4. #4
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    TiSe
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Temperament is behavioral, while type theory is cognitive (perception and judging, somewhat like input and output on a computer), and behavior will be shaped differently depending on the preferred mode of perception.
    Yet as I just noted in my previous post, Keirsey attempts to describe his introverted types by using their cognitive function, however describes SPs by their auxiliary function. I have not looked at whether he does the same for SJs.

  5. #5
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    I just ran by a few on keirsey.com, and what it looks like he's doing, is for S types, focusing on the judging function aspects, because that's where the four types of each temperament are distinct from eath other. After all, they agree in their perception preference, which determines the temperament.
    For N types, it seems INTJ-Te; ENTJ-Te; INTP-Ti, ENTP-Ne, NF's-more balanced between both preferred functions. Of course, Keirsey by that time no longer believed in the functions, but the basic descriptions of the types remained the same.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  6. #6
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    TiSe
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I just ran by a few on keirsey.com, and what it looks like he's doing, is for S types, focusing on the judging function aspects, because that's where the four types of each temperament are distinct from eath other. After all, they agree in their perception preference, which determines the temperament.
    For N types, it seems INTJ-Te; ENTJ-Te; INTP-Ti, ENTP-Ne, NF's-more balanced between both preferred functions. Of course, Keirsey by that time no longer believed in the functions, but the basic descriptions of the types remained the same.
    When you say S types and judging, I am assuming that you mean Si types? Clearly descriptions for ISPs has the same flavor as that of ESPs from his descriptions. Look at the depiction of Keirsey on ISTP and ISFP:
    Like all the Artisans, Crafters are people who love action, and who know instinctively that their activities are more enjoyable, and more effective, if done impulsively, spontaneously, subject to no schedules or standards but their own. In a sense, Crafters do not work with their tools, but play with them when the urge strikes them. Crafters also seek fun and games on impulse, looking for any opportunity, and just because they feel like it, to play with their various toys: cars, motorcycles, boats, dune-buggies, hunting rifles, fishing tackle, scuba gear, and on and on. They thrive on excitement, particularly the rush of speed-racing, water-skiing, surfing. And Crafters are fearless in their play, exposing themselves to danger again and again, even despite frequent injury. Of all the types, Crafters are most likely to be risk takers, pitting themselves, or their technique, against chance or odds.
    Although Composers often put long, lonely hours into their artistry, they are just as impulsive as the other Artisans. They do not wait to consider their moves; rather, they act in the here and now, with little or no planning or preparation. Composers are seized by the act of artistic composition, as if caught up in a whirlwind. The act is their master, not the reverse. Composers paint or sculpt, they dance or skate, they write melodies or make recipes-or whatever-simply because they must. They climb the mountain because it is there.
    Now compare this with his thoughts on types having identical dominant functions, but differing auxiliary functions. He seems to give way too much credence to the secondary function:
    Architects show the greatest precision in thought and speech of all the types. They tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies instantaneously, and can detect contradictions no matter when or where they were made. It is difficult for an Architect to listen to nonsense, even in a casual conversation, without pointing out the speaker's error. And in any serious discussion or debate Architects are devastating, their skill in framing arguments giving them an enormous advantage. Architects regard all discussions as a search for understanding, and believe their function is to eliminate inconsistencies, which can make communication with them an uncomfortable experience for many.
    Healers have a profound sense of idealism that comes from a strong personal sense of right and wrong. They conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place, full of wondrous possibilities and potential goods. In fact, to understand Healers, we must understand that their deep commitment to the positive and the good is almost boundless and selfless, inspiring them to make extraordinary sacrifices for someone or something they believe in. Set off from the rest of humanity by their privacy and scarcity (around one percent of the population), Healers can feel even more isolated in the purity of their idealism.
    Again he shows a great imbalance in intuitive types being able to use their dominant function, but SPs being ruled by their auxiliary. I agree with you Eric that he definitely dismissed Jungs cognitive functions at some point.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    590

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    When you say S types and judging, I am assuming that you mean Si types? Clearly descriptions for ISPs has the same flavor as that of ESPs from his descriptions. Look at the depiction of Keirsey on ISTP and ISFP:Now compare this with his thoughts on types having identical dominant functions, but differing auxiliary functions. He seems to give way too much credence to the secondary function:Again he shows a great imbalance in intuitive types being able to use their dominant function, but SPs being ruled by their auxiliary. I agree with you Eric that he definitely dismissed Jungs cognitive functions at some point.
    The funniest part is that the description of INTP is totally bogus!!

    In another forum, Vicky Jo mentioned that she's NEVER seen Linda Berens debating, ever. And that definately matches my experience of INTPs. Reading that description, I keep thinking "no wonder so many INTJs think that they're INTPs".

    The Hass+Hunziker description of "INTP language" also mentions them pausing and appearing to waffle in speach.

    I also think John Kerry was an INTP. (he APPEARED to waffle, and the republicans took advantage of that)

    "And in any serious discussion or debate Architects are devastating, their skill in framing arguments giving them an enormous advantage"

    ...what a crock.

    Anyways, I never thought about the temperment descriptions that way before, but the idea of Kiersey emphasizing the sensing functions for SJs and SPs makes perfect sense (although some of the descriptions don't even have relevant function-attitude information, instead they have some basic character caricature). Keirsey had a hammer and everything looked like a nail, so his descriptions really screwed the improvisors.

    Of course, if we set the Kiersey caricatures aside, furtunately it's still easy to see how dominant functions still serve a temperment's *core needs*.

  8. #8
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    because keirsey is stupid.

    if anything, the temperaments should be EJ, EP, IJ, IP. or maybe TJ, TP, FJ, FP.

    the whole guardian, rational, idealist, artisan thing just leads to stereotyping.

  9. #9
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    There are 16 possible combination of the 4 letters (4^2). Each group can be quatrichotomized and described.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  10. #10
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    There are 16 possible combination of the 4 letters (4^2). Each group can be quatrichotomized and described.
    be careful with that line of thinking. you lose information going from cognitive processes to that level.

Similar Threads

  1. [Kiersey] If SP and SJ were replaced by SF and ST...
    By Chanaynay in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 07-01-2014, 07:44 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Differences between NT thinking and ST thinking
    By Grungemouse in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 05-24-2009, 12:42 PM
  3. [NF] NFs(maybe SFs too?) and "emotional absorption"
    By Dwigie in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 08-30-2008, 10:25 PM
  4. Why SP & SJ: Why not SF & ST ??
    By Butterfly in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-07-2008, 07:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO