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STs and SFs

LunarMoon

New member
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
309
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3
I always have observed the ESTP to be more comparable to an ESFP than an ESTJ. ESTJs, as most Guardians do, place an extensive value on accomplishing tasks and maintaining personal responsibility. An ESxP’s main motivation is to enjoy life to the fullest extent of the present moment, causing the Artisan’s interaction style to be almost abrasive towards the Guardian’s.

i admit that his theories correlate to the truth. there are two problems, though:
1) he can't account for people on the border between temperaments (like me for example, lol). this will lead to putting people in boxes that they don't actually fit into.
The chances of this occurring are dramatically heightened when someone is borderline on the functions or even in the dichotomies. These measurements are more specific than the temperaments and a minute difference in score can therefore affect the entire readout. The temperaments on the other hand are very distinctly flavored and wide spreading, making it easier to sort someone into one of the four personality boxes.

2) his temperaments are not parallel, which is totally misleading. for example, ISFP and INFP are much more similar than ISFP and ISTP, but he groups the SPs together.
Depends on what we’re measuring. ISFPs and INFPs are both dominate Fi so if you’re looking at the many ways in which they carry their moral values then yes, INFPs are more similar to ISFPs. However, ultimately INFPs are far more comparable to INTPs as the S-N dichotomy determines everything from a person’s basic perception of the world to the manner in which they spend their leisure time. The T-F divide determines how a person will act out on that information, either externally or internally, but in other regards Rationals and Idealists are quite similar.

yes, some people who would not delve into the functions will gain some insight. but some of those some will get FALSE insight. allllllll bad.
The same can be said for any of the other various methods. There is no shortage of MBTI enthusiasts who gauge type by the dominant function and the dominant function alone, leading to an extreme oversimplification of the personality types. Overall, any form of measurement can be misread and misinterpreted, regardless of how meticulous it is. And none of the MBTI determination methods tend to win very highly in terms of being detailed or scrupulous.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
explain...

well, it seems obvious that SJ and SP are not parallel to NF and NT. he should either have picked SJ, SP, NJ, NP or SF, ST, NF, NT.

when i think temperament, i think it has more to do with EP, EJ, IP, IJ anyway.

EP = explorer
EJ = implementer
IP = thinker (not in the jungian sense obviously)
IJ = data collector/observer/trend noticer

or you could look at it as TP, TJ, FP, FJ -- which judging function is most used. you could even simplify it two TP/FJ, FP/TJ if you wanted.

i dunno, the letters can be grouped together in many ways. it just doesn't make sense to do it in a non-parallel way.


again -- the people on the border of the temperaments end up being shoved into boxes that they don't fit into. i hate to use myself as an example, but i certainly do NOT fit the NF temperament, although i'm technically INFJ. i also don't really fit the NT temperament, although it's closer.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
be careful with that line of thinking. you lose information going from cognitive processes to that level.

Well I haven't said anything about the rank of usefulness of these groups. Some of them could be (and actually are) entirely useless. Let's also pay attention to the fact that, in compiling descriptions based on comparisons between those groups, you cannot mix them (ex. there's no use in trying to group togheter IT IF SJ SP): only groups whose sets encompass all the 16types should be taken into consideration (so for ex. IT IF ET EF, IS IN EN ES, so on).

This type of analysis would actually solve the problem of people not fitting into the box of their temperament due to borderline preference. An ESxP might not relate to SF or ST very well, but he/she should find ES EP SP as groups worth representing hir behavior.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Here are all the symmetrical combinations. I have heard that Otto Kroeger gives lectures on them.

E/I + S/N (I call them "language styles")

ES extraverted dominant function, preferred perception function is Sensing (expressive, concrete)
EN extraverted dominant function, preferred perception function is iNtuition (expressive, abstract)
IS introverted dominant function, preferred perception function is Sensing (reserved, concrete)
IN introverted dominant function, preferred perception function is iNtuition (reserved, abstract)

E/I + T/F (I call them "Social image temperaments")

EF extraverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Feeling ("expressive feelers")
ET extraverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Thinking ("expressive thinkers")
IF introverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Feeling ("deep feelers")
IT introverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Thinking ("deep thinkers")

E/I + J/P ("Sociability Temperaments" —George Frisbie writing in JPT)

EP dominant extraverted perceiving
EJ dominant extraverted judging
IP dominant introverted judging/aux. extraverted perceiving
IJ dominant introverted perceiving/aux. extroverted judging

S/N + T/F (Original Myers "Temperaments"; preferred function combinations)

SF preferred Sensing and Feeling (Concrete Feeling, concrete [role-]informatives)
ST preferred Sensing and Thinking (Concrete Thinking, concrete directives)
NF preferred iNtuiting and Feeling (Abstract Feeling; Apollonian/Idealist)
NT preferred iNtuiting and Thinking (Abstract Thinking; Promethean/Rational)

S/N + J/P ("Cognitive Temperaments", "Germane Temperaments", "Perceiving attitudes")

SP preferred extraverted Sensing (Dionysian/Artisan)
SJ preferred introverted Sensing (Epimethean/Guardian)
NP preferred extraverted iNtuiting (abstract informatives; [Janet] Germane: true Promethean)
NJ preferred introverted iNtuiting (abstract directives; Germane: True Apollonian)

T/F + J/P ("Normative Temperaments", "Judging temperament model", "Judging attitudes")

TJ preferred extraverted Thinking (Bissell [Achilles Tendencies]: "the most directive")
TP preferred introverted Thinking ("the most pragmatic")
FJ preferred extraverted Feeling ("the most cooperative")
FP preferred introverted Feeling ("the most friendly")

It seems the last three are more directly meaningful, directly identifying the functions, with attitudes and/or preferences. The first three only give you dominance and attitudes of unnamed functions, and preference of named functions without attitude. Yet they do seem to still group certain behaviors in a somewhat noticeable way.

Since I started out comparing MBTI with FIRO (which measures "expressed" and "wanted" behavior on three levels of interaction, two of which are social interaction and leadership skills), it would have been nice if the social area was E/I + J/P or T/F, and the other area was S/N + [whichever dichotomy was not used by the first area]. But because the FIRO system is more like ancient temperament (expressed and wanted being basically the two factors always used with temperament), and did not include perception skills (which seems to have been introduced into temperament theory with Kant), then it seemed to map better to the Keirseyan groupings, with a "twisted" Interaction Style matrix. This divides it between S and N, with the S side being J/P (temperament) E/I + T/F (interaction), and the N side being T/F (temperament) and E/I + J/P (interaction).
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
If anybody is interested, socionisc provides the description of each one of the 16 groups. They're called "reinin dichotomies".
 

"?"

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
1,167
MBTI Type
TiSe
i admit that his theories correlate to the truth. there are two problems, though:
1) he can't account for people on the border between temperaments (like me for example, lol). this will lead to putting people in boxes that they don't actually fit into.
2) his temperaments are not parallel, which is totally misleading. for example, ISFP and INFP are much more similar than ISFP and ISTP, but he groups the SPs together.

yes, some people who would not delve into the functions will gain some insight. but some of those some will get FALSE insight. allllllll bad.

listen, i learned about MBTI by reading his book. it took me months and months to UNLEARN the inconsistencies. i would rather have not even been exposed to his ideas.
I see your points Disonnance, but keep in mind his theory is based on temperament not specific cognitive functions. As FDG alludes to temperament will group types together showing commonalities. To the contrary I think that I have a great deal in common with other SP types because of my core values. However I have commonalities with INTPs in thinking in a similar fashion and just as equal commonalities with the interaction styles of INTJ, ISTJ and INFJ in taking action. The problem is Keirsey introduced his theory based on MBTI. In retrospect, I don't think it was his attempt to mislead, but readers attempt to correlate the two separates systems.
 
Last edited:

mlittrell

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,387
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w1
very well stated ^ it seems we are slightly moving into the realm of function dynamics (as seen by TJ, TP, FJ, FP). Keep in mind, you can think of 1000s of different theories using MBTI that all logically make sense but if they fall apart when applied, then they are pointless.
 
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