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Thread: STs and SFs

  1. #21
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    I always have observed the ESTP to be more comparable to an ESFP than an ESTJ. ESTJs, as most Guardians do, place an extensive value on accomplishing tasks and maintaining personal responsibility. An ESxPís main motivation is to enjoy life to the fullest extent of the present moment, causing the Artisanís interaction style to be almost abrasive towards the Guardianís.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i admit that his theories correlate to the truth. there are two problems, though:
    1) he can't account for people on the border between temperaments (like me for example, lol). this will lead to putting people in boxes that they don't actually fit into.
    The chances of this occurring are dramatically heightened when someone is borderline on the functions or even in the dichotomies. These measurements are more specific than the temperaments and a minute difference in score can therefore affect the entire readout. The temperaments on the other hand are very distinctly flavored and wide spreading, making it easier to sort someone into one of the four personality boxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    2) his temperaments are not parallel, which is totally misleading. for example, ISFP and INFP are much more similar than ISFP and ISTP, but he groups the SPs together.
    Depends on what weíre measuring. ISFPs and INFPs are both dominate Fi so if youíre looking at the many ways in which they carry their moral values then yes, INFPs are more similar to ISFPs. However, ultimately INFPs are far more comparable to INTPs as the S-N dichotomy determines everything from a personís basic perception of the world to the manner in which they spend their leisure time. The T-F divide determines how a person will act out on that information, either externally or internally, but in other regards Rationals and Idealists are quite similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    yes, some people who would not delve into the functions will gain some insight. but some of those some will get FALSE insight. allllllll bad.
    The same can be said for any of the other various methods. There is no shortage of MBTI enthusiasts who gauge type by the dominant function and the dominant function alone, leading to an extreme oversimplification of the personality types. Overall, any form of measurement can be misread and misinterpreted, regardless of how meticulous it is. And none of the MBTI determination methods tend to win very highly in terms of being detailed or scrupulous.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  2. #22
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    explain...
    well, it seems obvious that SJ and SP are not parallel to NF and NT. he should either have picked SJ, SP, NJ, NP or SF, ST, NF, NT.

    when i think temperament, i think it has more to do with EP, EJ, IP, IJ anyway.

    EP = explorer
    EJ = implementer
    IP = thinker (not in the jungian sense obviously)
    IJ = data collector/observer/trend noticer

    or you could look at it as TP, TJ, FP, FJ -- which judging function is most used. you could even simplify it two TP/FJ, FP/TJ if you wanted.

    i dunno, the letters can be grouped together in many ways. it just doesn't make sense to do it in a non-parallel way.


    again -- the people on the border of the temperaments end up being shoved into boxes that they don't fit into. i hate to use myself as an example, but i certainly do NOT fit the NF temperament, although i'm technically INFJ. i also don't really fit the NT temperament, although it's closer.

  3. #23
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    be careful with that line of thinking. you lose information going from cognitive processes to that level.
    Well I haven't said anything about the rank of usefulness of these groups. Some of them could be (and actually are) entirely useless. Let's also pay attention to the fact that, in compiling descriptions based on comparisons between those groups, you cannot mix them (ex. there's no use in trying to group togheter IT IF SJ SP): only groups whose sets encompass all the 16types should be taken into consideration (so for ex. IT IF ET EF, IS IN EN ES, so on).

    This type of analysis would actually solve the problem of people not fitting into the box of their temperament due to borderline preference. An ESxP might not relate to SF or ST very well, but he/she should find ES EP SP as groups worth representing hir behavior.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #24
    ‚íļ‚ďČ‚í∑ Eric B's Avatar
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    Here are all the symmetrical combinations. I have heard that Otto Kroeger gives lectures on them.

    E/I + S/N (I call them "language styles")

    ES extraverted dominant function, preferred perception function is Sensing (expressive, concrete)
    EN extraverted dominant function, preferred perception function is iNtuition (expressive, abstract)
    IS introverted dominant function, preferred perception function is Sensing (reserved, concrete)
    IN introverted dominant function, preferred perception function is iNtuition (reserved, abstract)

    E/I + T/F (I call them "Social image temperaments")

    EF extraverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Feeling ("expressive feelers")
    ET extraverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Thinking ("expressive thinkers")
    IF introverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Feeling ("deep feelers")
    IT introverted dominant function, preferred judging function is Thinking ("deep thinkers")

    E/I + J/P ("Sociability Temperaments" óGeorge Frisbie writing in JPT)

    EP dominant extraverted perceiving
    EJ dominant extraverted judging
    IP dominant introverted judging/aux. extraverted perceiving
    IJ dominant introverted perceiving/aux. extroverted judging

    S/N + T/F (Original Myers "Temperaments"; preferred function combinations)

    SF preferred Sensing and Feeling (Concrete Feeling, concrete [role-]informatives)
    ST preferred Sensing and Thinking (Concrete Thinking, concrete directives)
    NF preferred iNtuiting and Feeling (Abstract Feeling; Apollonian/Idealist)
    NT preferred iNtuiting and Thinking (Abstract Thinking; Promethean/Rational)

    S/N + J/P ("Cognitive Temperaments", "Germane Temperaments", "Perceiving attitudes")

    SP preferred extraverted Sensing (Dionysian/Artisan)
    SJ preferred introverted Sensing (Epimethean/Guardian)
    NP preferred extraverted iNtuiting (abstract informatives; [Janet] Germane: true Promethean)
    NJ preferred introverted iNtuiting (abstract directives; Germane: True Apollonian)

    T/F + J/P ("Normative Temperaments", "Judging temperament model", "Judging attitudes")

    TJ preferred extraverted Thinking (Bissell [Achilles Tendencies]: "the most directive")
    TP preferred introverted Thinking ("the most pragmatic")
    FJ preferred extraverted Feeling ("the most cooperative")
    FP preferred introverted Feeling ("the most friendly")

    It seems the last three are more directly meaningful, directly identifying the functions, with attitudes and/or preferences. The first three only give you dominance and attitudes of unnamed functions, and preference of named functions without attitude. Yet they do seem to still group certain behaviors in a somewhat noticeable way.

    Since I started out comparing MBTI with FIRO (which measures "expressed" and "wanted" behavior on three levels of interaction, two of which are social interaction and leadership skills), it would have been nice if the social area was E/I + J/P or T/F, and the other area was S/N + [whichever dichotomy was not used by the first area]. But because the FIRO system is more like ancient temperament (expressed and wanted being basically the two factors always used with temperament), and did not include perception skills (which seems to have been introduced into temperament theory with Kant), then it seemed to map better to the Keirseyan groupings, with a "twisted" Interaction Style matrix. This divides it between S and N, with the S side being J/P (temperament) E/I + T/F (interaction), and the N side being T/F (temperament) and E/I + J/P (interaction).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  5. #25
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    If anybody is interested, socionisc provides the description of each one of the 16 groups. They're called "reinin dichotomies".
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #26
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i admit that his theories correlate to the truth. there are two problems, though:
    1) he can't account for people on the border between temperaments (like me for example, lol). this will lead to putting people in boxes that they don't actually fit into.
    2) his temperaments are not parallel, which is totally misleading. for example, ISFP and INFP are much more similar than ISFP and ISTP, but he groups the SPs together.

    yes, some people who would not delve into the functions will gain some insight. but some of those some will get FALSE insight. allllllll bad.

    listen, i learned about MBTI by reading his book. it took me months and months to UNLEARN the inconsistencies. i would rather have not even been exposed to his ideas.
    I see your points Disonnance, but keep in mind his theory is based on temperament not specific cognitive functions. As FDG alludes to temperament will group types together showing commonalities. To the contrary I think that I have a great deal in common with other SP types because of my core values. However I have commonalities with INTPs in thinking in a similar fashion and just as equal commonalities with the interaction styles of INTJ, ISTJ and INFJ in taking action. The problem is Keirsey introduced his theory based on MBTI. In retrospect, I don't think it was his attempt to mislead, but readers attempt to correlate the two separates systems.
    Last edited by "?"; 09-07-2008 at 08:47 AM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    very well stated ^ it seems we are slightly moving into the realm of function dynamics (as seen by TJ, TP, FJ, FP). Keep in mind, you can think of 1000s of different theories using MBTI that all logically make sense but if they fall apart when applied, then they are pointless.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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