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  1. #71
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Hmmm...but the same doesn't seem to happen with say, ISFJs and INFJs.
    yeah, i know.

    how they say, statistic's purpose is to manipulate "facts".

    well, no, i think it's more likely for SP to test N, than SJ, of course.

    and i know 2 esfps who tested enfp.

  2. #72
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leysing View Post
    Finnish men are ISTx.
    Finnish women are ESFJ.
    (At least those are the stereotypes.)

    But, yes, well, I see lots of ISxJs here. They are everywhere. I could guess at least 1/4 of population, if not even 1/3.
    (Finns are supposed to work loyally and effectively and keep their mouths shut. It's an easy place for an introvert to live in. )
    MBTI is about land.

    Big time landowners >
    priests > the professional class (doctors, judges, civil servants, high bureaucrats: ESTJ
    Farmers > middle class: ISTJ
    Landless > hired hands, vagabonds, mercenaries, petty thieves: ESTP, ISTP


    Sources:
    Linnankoski, Linna, Salama, Holma.

    Fiction is not fiction. Only non-fiction is fiction.

  3. #73
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Here are the results from the aforementioned Iowa study on type and race:

    I guess I'm not imagining or mistyping the large percentage of ISTJ in African Americans.
    (and there do seem to be quite a few ESFJ's among Hispanic women).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #74
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Here are the results from the aforementioned Iowa study on type and race:

    [IMG]image removed[/IMG]


    -and US vs. UK:

    [IMG]image removed[/IMG]
    Hmmm, I've seen this before.

    I'm a nurture person along the nature vs. nurture debate and I think the reason why so many African Americans type as S/SJ because historically these traits are encouraged. Can you imagine being a stereotypical dreamy INFP toiling in a field or as a domestic constantly having to pay attention to laundry, cooking, and children every day? It's just like that scene from The Color Purple when Sofia says to Celie:
    Girl, you oughta bash Misters head open and think about heaven later!
    I wish there were some statistics from African countries, specifically west Africa to use as a basis for comparison to see if the percentages are similar. I know that from what I've read of a few west African societies and cultures like the Yoruba and the Dogon, those are highly abstract Ni-heavy cultures. I think strong sensing traits have been "breed" so to speak into black Americans, not genetically but socially and culturally embedded very deeply.

    I also read a study a while ago about how most black parents have an authoritarian parenting style (there are strong benefits to this style especially with an urban and/or violent environment) which does not encourage certain traits similar to what people would classify as intuitive, e.g. openness to ideas.

    This investigation examines the hypothesis that authoritarian parenting is a culturally influenced protective factor that differentially buffers African American male adolescents from delinquency and violence. The essence of the hypothesis is that authoritarian parenting, consistent with the true nature of protective factors, will interact with risk factors for delinquency and violence to neutralize or diminish delinquent and violent offending. The core of the study examines whether authoritarian parenting, a least preferred child rearing style in low risk adolescents, will differentially neutralize or diminish the synergistic effects of multiple risk factors on delinquent and violent offending in high risk African American male adolescents in comparison to European American male adolescents. Five risk factors including poverty, low maternal education, early child bearing, female-headed households and neighborhood disorder are utilized to assess the effects of the hypothesized cultural protective factor. Factor and reliability analyses will be conducted to assess the adequacy of the measures. To test the hypothesis, a comparison of regression coefficients between high risk African American and European American male adolescents will be derived to examine for statistically significant differences in support of the hypothesis. The longitudinal panel design of the Rochester Youth Development Study will allow for an analysis of the influence of the hypothesized cultural protective factor, authoritarian parenting, during late adolescence, a critical developmental time point in adolescents' lives and a period where offending is most prevalent.
    Source

    I think authoritarian styles tend to overlap somewhat with S and J.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #75
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    -and US vs. UK:


    Do you know how large those studies were? Because stats have a certain margain for error on them, and unless the sample sizes are particularly large, I'm incline to say that within experimental error, both countries are the same.

  6. #76
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unconvinced View Post
    i think that probably all cultures have preferred personality types, which represent the "ideal" members of that society, and which influence the individuals within it when they take MBTI tests; but the true distribution of personality types is probably similar across cultures.

    it seems to me that most people in any given culture tend to prefer whatever traits are preferred culturally, whether they really have them or not (they may even really believe that they have those traits when they don't). i think this is true of sub-culturally preferred traits too (and i think this is why there are so many N's online but not in real life--i think most online N's are really S's--they post like S's at least).

    this is one of the problems i have with MBTI results, i think they reflect more often what people wish was true about themselves than what actually is true.
    I agree. Very true.

    I think each culture favors a certain personality type, but the frequency of types in the population overall is still the same (i.e, very few Ns and more Sensors).

    People don't change from culture to culture. The standard does.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Can you imagine being a stereotypical dreamy INFP toiling in a field or as a domestic constantly having to pay attention to laundry, cooking, and children every day?


    Well, it's quite possible for an INFP to have been a fieldworker or a house slave during slavery. In fact, I'm more than sure there were, but we definitely would have had a harder time coping with the realities of slavery than, say, the xSTJ or the ESTP slave.

    I wish there were some statistics from African countries, specifically west Africa to use as a basis for comparison to see if the percentages are similar. I know that from what I've read of a few west African societies and cultures like the Yoruba and the Dogon, those are highly abstract Ni-heavy cultures. I think strong sensing traits have been "breed" so to speak into black Americans, not genetically but socially and culturally embedded very deeply.
    Mmm, that's interesting.

    Interesting because I agree and disagree with you all at the same time.

    Let me think about this a little more...

    I also read a study a while ago about how most black parents have an authoritarian parenting style (there are strong benefits to this style especially with an urban and/or violent environment) which does not encourage certain traits similar to what people would classify as intuitive, e.g. openness to ideas.
    Source

    I think authoritarian styles tend to overlap somewhat with S and J.
    I was thinking about this the other day.

    I was trying to figure out if there was something in my childhood that could have inspired the N. Sometimes, I think "yes," but other times... I don't know. I get the sense that I would have still been an INFP if I had grown up in a different environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Really? I thought Swedes and other scandinavians were known for being a little introverted or shy, and goofy.
    No, not necessarily.

    That's just the stereotype our culture associates with petite blondes.


  7. #77
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I guess I'm not imagining or mistyping the large percentage of ISTJ in African Americans.
    (and there do seem to be quite a few ESFJ's among Hispanic women).
    Not imagining it, it's been documented.
    More frequent among African Americans
    ISTJ - Introverted Sensing Thinking Judging - Ransdell Associates


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Hmmm, I've seen this before.

    I'm a nurture person along the nature vs. nurture debate and I think the reason why so many African Americans type as S/SJ because historically these traits are encouraged.
    Yes, I've actually read something that essentially said the bolded. The theory was that many AAs type themselves with expectations of dominant class preferences in mind. I'm willing to bet that the same often happens to many men and women on the T vs. F scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Can you imagine being a stereotypical dreamy INFP toiling in a field or as a domestic constantly having to pay attention to laundry, cooking, and children every day? It's just like that scene from The Color Purple when Sofia says to Celie: Girl, you oughta bash Misters head open and think about heaven later!
    Haha, so true. At the same time though, I can't imagine where we'd be without the slaves who were idealist. I'm led to think about the hope that so many slaves used as fuel for survival, and I can't think of any other way to define that hope but in terms of idealism. In the face of what was in front of the last of them(generations of enslavement), many managed to envision freedom and a new day, to the degree to which it was within their mind's grasp as a potential reality. There were few cohesive plans for survival, and little idea of where anyone would be housed, or how they would legitimately make a living; yet ultimately, they lived and died to hopefully see that day, bring what may.


    I wish there were some statistics from African countries, specifically west Africa to use as a basis for comparison to see if the percentages are similar. I know that from what I've read of a few west African societies and cultures like the Yoruba and the Dogon, those are highly abstract Ni-heavy cultures. I think strong sensing traits have been "breed" so to speak into black Americans, not genetically but socially and culturally embedded very deeply.
    That would be good information. I wonder how intuition vs. sensing functions compare regarding their individual abilities to aid in physical survival. It'd be interesting to know if this could all be tied into something like Maslow's Hierarchy.

    I also read a study a while ago about how most black parents have an authoritarian parenting style (there are strong benefits to this style especially with an urban and/or violent environment) which does not encourage certain traits similar to what people would classify as intuitive, e.g. openness to ideas.
    True, AA parents do tend to have an authoritarian parenting style. Although, it's hard to determine what came first: the authoritarian parenting style, or the severe stress that so often induces it. Families that are more socially and economically secure tend to be less authoritarian and more authoritative. Again, I'm thinking something along the lines of Maslow's Hierarchy. How far are we going to get if everyone has their head's in the clouds, imagining the possibilities and waiting for the right moment, versus dutifully and methodically doing and remaining alert to present surroundings? Further, there's a risk in blazing new trails, far too great perhaps, for many newly established families/cultures/individuals. Following the tried and true may seem like a better way to ensure familial security.

    I think authoritarian styles tend to overlap somewhat with S and J.
    Yes, or even T and J.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Do you know how large those studies were? Because stats have a certain margain for error on them, and unless the sample sizes are particularly large, I'm incline to say that within experimental error, both countries are the same.
    I'll find it and post.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Croatia = ESTP dominated, ESTJ highly prefered.

  9. #79
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Not imagining it, it's been documented. ISTJ - Introverted Sensing Thinking Judging - Ransdell Associates

    Yes, I've actually read something that essentially said the bolded. The theory was that many AAs type themselves with expectations of dominant class preferences in mind. I'm willing to bet that the same often happens to many men and women on the T vs. F scale.

    Haha, so true. At the same time though, I can't imagine where we'd be without the slaves who were idealist. I'm led to think about the hope that so many slaves used as fuel for survival, and I can't think of any other way to define that hope but in terms of idealism. In the face of what was in front of the last of them(generations of enslavement), many managed to envision freedom and a new day, to the degree to which it was within their mind's grasp as a potential reality. There were few cohesive plans for survival, and little idea of where anyone would be housed, or how they would legitimately make a living; yet ultimately, they lived and died to hopefully see that day, bring what may.
    I figured this using the old temperament system, where it seems most of my family and people on the job are what is known as Melancholy. And then, ISTJ seems to fit (matching the correlation I made between the two systems), because most of them are so orderly, externally logical, and have these sharp memories (can remember everything I ever did wrong). Yet I hear of other people here alnd elsewhere talking about a wide variety of types in their family, work, etc. and I often wonder if it is realistic for me to be so surrounded by this one type. But apprently, it is true.

    I tend to go along with type/temperament being inborn, but of couse, that is not absolutely certain. If it is developed from the environment, then it would make sense that AA's would be ISTJ, because that perhaps is the best type for survival in slavery, and the rest of discrimination after that.
    You can see the corresponding "Melancholy" profile here: The Melancholy Temperament ("Inclusion" is the IST part of it, and "Control" is the SJ).
    Notice, the main thread of this temperament is "independence".

    The I's would have less problems from the slavemaster, while the E's probably get more in trouble. Especially "Choleric" types like ENTJ. They were deliberately dumbed down, and the main focus was survival, so there would be a leaning towards S over N with its imagination. They also became very traditional, with their pain and survival expressed through arts associated with memories (books, plays, etc we have seen over the decades).
    T would be extraverted (J), because again, you're only doing what you have to to survive. So they learned to be tough, and directive, though again, not very initiating or pragmatic about it. So they turn it on themselves, their families, etc. F would then be introverted, and tertiary, as they had to draw their self-worth and strength from "within" often through stuff like religion.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #80
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I also read a study a while ago about how most black parents have an authoritarian parenting style (there are strong benefits to this style especially with an urban and/or violent environment) which does not encourage certain traits similar to what people would classify as intuitive, e.g. openness to ideas.



    Source
    That's just the abstract. Has the study been completed yet and do we know the results?

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