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  1. #1
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Default From the Horses' Mouth: Jung's Root descriptions of the Functions.

    We (following the lead of those like Berens, Nardi, Hartzler, etc) have gotten so into identifying the functions by behavioral descriptions, such as "organizing, segmenting", "analyzing, categorizing", "considering others and responding to them" and "evaluating importance", and then spend a lot of time debating as to whose behavior (here, with each other, or others we aim to type) matches each set of descriptions.

    I liked how ? had spoken of going straight to the horses mouth and getting Jungs own descriptions of the functions Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10 to prevent the biasness and interpretations of others.

    Going back to Jung's root descriptions, it is very simple. "introverted" functions are those that stem from the "subject" (the person using the function), and extraverted functions are those that stem from the object, which can be another person, group, or other thing external to the person using the function:

    Te: externally sourced logic
    Ti: internally sourced logic
    Fe: externally sourced values/ethics
    Fi: internally sourced values ethics

    With the perception functions, it is the same, of course:

    Se: externally sourced experience
    Si: internally sourced experience (e.g. Memory)
    Ne: externally sourced conceptualization
    Ni: internally sourced conceptualizations (e.g. premonition)

    Much of the debate over type and function preferences centers on judging.

    So Te at its root is external logic, such as facts. A person using this function starts with facts and then builds his knowledge squarely from this.
    Ti at its root is internal logic. You develop ideas, and then seek "facts" simply to back them up.

    A lot of the debate here has involved people seeing Ti types handling the facts, and then concluding they they are using Te. This has happened with me and my ideas on how different temperament systems fit together, as well as, more recently, and more well known, BlueWing's essays.
    People see the facts being tossed around and assume it's Te, but the question Jung would have us ask, is which is the source of the idea? Is the person using the facts to substantiate preconceived ideas, or does he just basically relay those facts? With BlueWing, it looked like he has come up with his own conclusions substantiated with facts which he cites in his writing. This would fit Jun's definition of Ti. My pairing systems like MBTI and FIRO together, since they are preexisting (external) systems, has been compared to Te "walking into a room full of dials and changing them" or "playing with jigsaw pieces", rather than developing an internal idea. But the theory on how they fit together is itself the original internal idea! It too uses empirical data (similarities in behavior of types or factors in both systems, and occasionally, existing statistical correlations) to support a ready made idea, rather than it only relying on empirical data.

    There are a number of reasons facts are employed. We're trying to publicize ideas to an audience consisting of all different types, and it is known as it is that there is somewhat of a predominance of an STJ (TeSi) mindset in society. So people want hard facts in order to to view something as credible.
    Plus, to the dom. Ti type, Te is in the oppositional/ backup role, meaning it is on the top of the shadow range (on the border of the ego-compatible range, the closest of those to his consciousness), and is the function used to become stubborn and argumentative, in its more negative aspect, and provides backup or depth to the lead function in its more positive aspect.

    For the Feeling functions, Fe is basically external values, and Fi is internal values. The word "values" I find misleading, especially for the internal attitude, because everyone has internal values. Behaviors such as becoming upset because things don't go your way I'm wondering as to whether they really are good indicators of an Fi preference, as I have seen used in type discussions once in awhile. We all have a survival instinct, which guides such things as physiological needs, pleasure and comfort, power and control, etc. TP types, with dominant Ti and last place Fi often seem to be pictured as these cold robots, to whom nothing is important; nothing bothers them (except perhaps illogic). You would think then, that you could go up and smack a TP on the head, insult them, rob them even, and it will be OK, because "they're not 'in touch' with personal values".

    But then on the other hand, it is sometimes said that logic itself is their value; or "principles" which they can even become very emotional about. Hence why the term "value" is ambiguous. "Ethics" is another word (as used by Socionics), but that seems on the other hand, a bit too narrow, like it's only about morality.

    So Ti types have the basic survival instincts, and hence get upset when personal values are violated. This is technically Fi, but then it will be nearly their only experience of the function. Hence, its role as a negative "shadow" function. In rare occasions will it become positive, to transform or provide comedy to a situation. To Fi preferring types, there is a more positive aspect of it, which rewards them for being true to themselves and does not only give them bad feelings about violated values.

    It seems that both Ti and Si judgements stem from external data that is internalized. It is taken in and then becomes subjective. You take in senses, internalize them, and then bring them up again from within as memory. Likewise, you take in logical knowledge, and then internalize it and make the models and frameworks your own, and even create your own. These are then brought up again from within when you reference them in solving problems.

    Fi and Ni can work that way too. You take in values or patterns and make them your own, to reference when needed. Yet they also seem to be more likely to develop internally apart from outside input. You just grow up develop your own ethics, or visions of the future apart from your environment. So both are described as having some "mystical" qualities. Ni naturally seems mystical, but notice that Jung describes Fi as mystical as well.

    This shows that while "objective" and "subjective" are usually applied to the e and i attitudes, the terms can also describe Sensing vs iNtuition as well as Thinking vs Feeling. (and likewise, perception in general-S/N, is more "objective" while judgment -T/F is "subjective")

    So does anyone think this helps clear things up?
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  2. #2
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    It does make a lot of sense, yes, but to the world at large I don't think it will clear anything up. The market is flooded with function theory, oft conflicting. It's quite a mess.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I was facinated by the description of introverted and extroverted which are very different from what is usually done, i.e. introverts liked to spend time alone and extroverts liked to socialize.

    I will make use of Te, but almost always as a support function. Te provides facts to back up other functions. My natural tendancy is to be highly abstract, too abstract for most people, so I throw in some facts to help other people understand my thoughts.

    I use Te not just to back up Ti, but also sometimes to back up N and F functions.

    I am really heavy on the interally sources all the way down. It doesn't alternate i and e for me. All my i are stronger than my e. Te seems to be the strongest of my e fuctions, probably becuase it is a good all around support function. Also Te gets a workout in school memorizing dates and names and numbers so there is some forced development there. Even in essay tests, the teacher would say, "support your ideas" i.e. put some hard Te facts in for support.

    For me Si, as described by Jung, is not about memory, but about seeing objects symbolically. When I percieve something from my sense it is really about what it means (symbolizes) than how attractive or pleasing to the senses it is. 60's style is peaceful and calming. Goth is strong and non-conformist. Lace and ruffles are femine and romantic. Blankets are secure and comforting. Things are not mearly pleasant to the senses, they are meaningful and the meaning is more important than the actual sensations.

    I do the combining thing as well. I am not sure if it is i or e. I think it depends on why you are doing it.

    Lots to talks about. I will post more later.

  4. #4
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    i thought that S/N is subjective
    and your T/F is objective ?
    I N V I C T U S

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    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvereX View Post
    i thought that S/N is subjective
    and your T/F is objective ?
    here, objective means oriented around the object. subjective means oriented around the subject, or self.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    More on Si.

    Jung's description of Si helped me to understand some of the clothing styles I am drawn to. Choosing clothing is tricky for me. I tend to be drawn to extreme styles, styles on the fringe: hippie, goth, lolly, goth lolly, perky goth, punk, Victorian, retro, ren fair princess, bohemian. The problem is that these styles are all over the place and don't exactly go together. Well some of them do like hippie/ren faire princess/bohemian and goth/Victorian for example. But hippie and goth really do not work together at all. Rather heavy on the "people will look down on you for dressing like that" styles as well.

    In actuality my wardrobe is a mostly a very toned down version of these styles. An "influenced by" type thing. So I wonder, why am I so drawn to these very different styles and why do I always stop short of going all out except during SF and game conventions. I do work in an office so I couldn't wear them at work, but I could still dress up at home.

    So after reading this I realized that I am reacting to what each of these styles represent, what their meaning and symbolism is, not what the actually look like. That doesn't really answer why I hesitate to buy it to wear on the weekend. Possibly because that would be taking something internal out in a very visable way? Or maybe simple insecurity. Cheapness perhaps. This would be a big investment - most of this is more expensive than "normal" clothes - getting stuff I could only wear on weekends. Also harder to find since you don't usually see it at the malls, except some goth stuff at hot topic and that is not the style of goth that appeals to me. I could make/modify clothing, but that is a big time investment.

    Ilah

  7. #7
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I was concerned mainly with the judging functions, since they seem to be the ones most confusing at times. So I may have missed it, but where does Jung associate Si with symbolism? What you describe sounds more like iNtuition, particularly, extraverted (Which of cours is in tandem with Si).
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    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Another thing I would like to see sorted out, is the distintion between "outward" values and "universal" values. Even though you would think that universal values, since they are from outside the person, would then fall into the "extraverted" attitude. But instead, they are counted as part of Fi.
    Perhaps, that ties into that "mystical" sense that Jung spoke of, where as I pointed out, it is automatically inside of you and does not have to be internalized from the outside.

    An example is found in Hartzler, who mentions why we should have laws against killing. If you say "it might create an environment where someone could kill me", you are using a principle, and not a value.

    Universal principles also (such as math), I am not getting consistent answers as to what is Te and what is Ti.

    I'll have to check Jung again to see if he addresses this (hard for me to even digest that old writing style), but does anyone else have any thoughts as to how to distinguish "universal" judgment from "external"?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    here, objective means oriented around the object. subjective means oriented around the subject, or self.
    oops
    its rational and irrational
    darn AvereXs'
    I N V I C T U S

  10. #10
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I was concerned mainly with the judging functions, since they seem to be the ones most confusing at times. So I may have missed it, but where does Jung associate Si with symbolism? What you describe sounds more like iNtuition, particularly, extraverted (Which of cours is in tandem with Si).
    This as an exerpt from the part on Si. He does not actually use the word symbolism. That is how I would describe some of what he refers to, especially the part in bold.

    Ilah

    Subjective perception differs remarkably from the objective. It is either not found at all in the object, or, at most, merely suggested by it; it can, however, be similar to the sensation of other men, although not immediately derived from the objective behaviour of things. It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness -- it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas. The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the subjective factor has some meaning. To another, a reproduced subjective impression seems to suffer from the defect of possessing insufficient similarity with the object; it seems, therefore, to have failed in its purpose. Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world.

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