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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I am kind of sceptical of this. I think it's hard to generalize. People will have more in common with temperaments they test close to. An ESFJ with only a very weak J preference might obviously have a lot in common with the SP temperament. One can also imagine this person is only a borderline S, and so the person might also have a lot in common with the NF temperament. That's what makes the big difference, how people test. I think they test too diverse to generalize.
    I don't really believe in this weak preference stuff so much. I think people are one or the other (and are more likely confused or exhibiting temporary behavior due to a specific stimuli or circumstance). ESFPs are notoriously horrible testers. I tested one which I was 100% sure was an ESFP but tested as an ISTJ.

    Specifically between an ESFP and an ESFJ, they are so vastly different in behavior, I can't ever imagine confusing the two. Even if an ESFP is being organized for the day, or an ESFJ is acting hedonistic temporarily; there is an essence about them I can't imagine confusing. Other combinations I could definitley see having more trouble with like (infj/intj) or (istp/intp).

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Specifically between an ESFP and an ESFJ, they are so vastly different in behavior, I can't ever imagine confusing the two. Even if an ESFP is being organized for the day, or an ESFJ is acting hedonistic temporarily; there is an essence about them I can't imagine confusing.
    Yes, there is a judgment process occurring in the ESFJ and underlying the hedonism that still makes itself very well known; and there is a spontaneity and light-heartedness that underlies any structure on part of the ESFP.

    It's unavoidable; the ESFP is running on SeFi and the ESFJ is running on FeSi, and those things are very different in terms of the behaviors they generate. Even if the ESFJ has weak Fe, they are still using Si and NOT Se. And vice versa -- the ESFP is using Fi, NOT Fe.

    Other combinations I could definitley see having more trouble with like (infj/intj) or (istp/intp).
    Yes, those can get confusing. (The latter pair especially, depending on the person.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    I think that's a ridiculous black and white unempirical view. It makes absolutely no sense. If you are an ESFP testing 51-49 P, do you really think there will be no trace of ESFJ function order in that person? There are eight cognitive functions. Do you really believe they can only be found in 16 different orders, when there are in fact 40320 possible orders? Somehow I find that unlikey.

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    Do you really understand what a 51-49 split means, in regards to the sort of tests we're discussing?

    If you'd like, go ahead and post your own coherent theory of how functions can logically be organized in a way that includes the other 40304 permutations (or at least some subset of them). It would be interesting to see and compare to Berens and the others.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    I think of function orders of the types as a rough draft. How strong your preferences are will play a vital part in how they actually are. The further down in function order you get, the less I think it will coincide with theory. I think it is ridiculous to suggest the function order of for example every INTJ is the same.

    One of these 40304 other function orders is my own. According to a function test I took my function order is:

    1. Ni
    2. Ti
    3. Te and Ne
    5. Fi
    6. Se
    7. Si
    8. Fe

    I just don’t like an unempirical approach to MBTI. Then it becomes all about boxes. I see it as a useful tool to understanding people, but not as a perfect theory with all the answers.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I just don't like an unempirical approach to MBTI. Then it becomes all about boxes. I see it as a useful tool to understanding people, but not as a perfect theory with all the answers.
    We don't disagree on that.

    I just had trouble understanding what your criticisms have to do with the two posts preceding them. since the whole premise of what we were discussing involved the impact of the primary and secondary functions, which are the core of the MBTI personality theory (!).

    (It's not like we were basing our opinions on some obscure fifth or sixth place function, right?)

    Obviously your profile differs a bit and you do not easily fit into a box. People are all different, and some of us have been forced to develop functions earlier in life than expected. (For example, on the eight-function test, I ranked TiNe, but my Ni was close to my Ne score, and my Feeling functions seem more developed than expected.)

    But if you're going to class yourself as an INTJ, it must mean that -- regardless of your scores -- you should exhibit NiTe traits as your primary working personality PLUS you happen to have a good Ti. You should still be perceived as INTJ at core... or you would not be INTJ, right? You'd be something else?

    Same thing with ESFP vs ESFJ. It does not matter if they happen to show some additional function use, they still ultimately categorizable as ESFP or ESFJ... and generally speaking ESFP/ESFJ are discernable from each other.

    And empirical proof would be to gather a bunch, put them in a room to interact with others, and see if we could sort them out without prior knowledge... and I'm betting we could within a few minutes.

    My comments were based on that sort of "empirical" experience with people. I don't have any problem telling an ESFP from an ESFJ, and I've known ESFJs who were "out of control" and I've known ESFPs who had to be a little more organized than normal. They still look different.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Well, what I am trying to say is that it does exist cases where you can't tell an ESFP from an ESFJ. There will be 50-50 cases on the J/P scale. In that case I guess it would be a lot more meaningfull to view the function order of that person. Why do I suspect both the Si and Se function being strong in such a person?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    What test are you speaking about?

    I labeled ISFJs the idealist/guardian only because I find they are the most truly altruistic of the guardians. I find that many of the other ones have a tit for tat exchange in their head and often have less than pure motivations for being "nice". I noticed ISFJ's being less guilty of that.
    It's on INTPcentral somewhere among the online tests.
    Here's a similar one, but it's not as good as the one I mentioned: Kalil's Personality Quiz

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I think that's a ridiculous black and white unempirical view. It makes absolutely no sense. If you are an ESFP testing 51-49 P, do you really think there will be no trace of ESFJ function order in that person? There are eight cognitive functions. Do you really believe they can only be found in 16 different orders, when there are in fact 40320 possible orders? Somehow I find that unlikey.
    I agree with you, I think. Cut and paste this from something I wrote in a different thread.

    "I agree to a certain extent. Humans are too complex to be boiled down to 16 types. There are probably hundreds of types, even thousands. It just depends on how granular you want to go. Doing just extroverts and introverts would be far to simplistic. 32 types would be too much for most people to juggle in their heads. 16 was just a convenient stopping point for Jung."

    How seriously do you take MBTI? - Page 7 - INTP Central

    Also, just because they tested 49/51, it does not necessarily mean they are really that borderline. The fault is that the questions can be interpreted incorrectly, or the test taker isn't very self aware. I I know plenty of people who tested almost split, but once I get to know them, they really aren't split. They just answered the questions incorrectly, or the question was faulty in the first place.

    Just because I believe "types" exist, it doesn't mean the testing procedures are doing a good job of identifying them.
    Last edited by meanlittlechimp; 07-04-2007 at 09:30 PM.

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