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  1. #11
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    I agree with your Cafe...I could see an ESFJ as an artisan on a wild day. Come on now think "Girls gone Wild" not all those girls can be Artisans.
    I'm thinkin a good number of them are SJ's
    On a wild day, sure!

    But these are all generalizations and idealizations, like most Type stuff is. None of it is absolute or 100% accurate.

    To be so, would be to surrender entirely to Apollo (I don't mean BSG!)--and where is the fun in that?
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    I actually tried to force one to be the case. I just came up with these based on people I knew (and my intuitions on them as a whole), I tried hard to think of one that was more less guardian or more hedonistic, but I know a few individual ISTJ, ESFJ, and ESTJ hedonists. But I knew several severe counterexamples.

    Then I thought - why would there have to be a symmetrical alignment?

    The NT/NF/SJ paradigm is somewhat of an artificial or arbitrary boundary. On a vague moral or general world view sense - I see INFJs, INTJs and ENFPs closer to the ENTP, for example, than the ENTJ or INTP. I find INTPs, in a lot of ways, more similar to ISTPs (in terms of treatment of others) than to other rationals, etc...

    Ultimately, I don't find the NT grouping necessarily more important than other groupings conventions (at least the ones in my head).
    That's actually one of the things I picked up when looking at some of the psychological relationships some people made up for the types. A lot of other incomplete theories lack perfect symmetry, and have exceptions, and as a very incomplete idea on how people work, the MBTI system seems much more likely than not to have exceptions and lack of symmetry as well.

  3. #13
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    One correction chimp. ESTJ should be the quintissential SJ, they are indeed the type that is most concerned with following the objective tenets of the tradition. ESFJs are bit softer on that, as they may go out of their way to please others.

    I dont believe that ESFJ is artisan like. Their superior function is an Extroverted Judging one. If there would be an SJ that is the most SP-like, it would have to be one with a superior perceiving function.

    I dont think that either the ISTJ or ISFJ have enough of that element in them. ISTJ, though should be the most NT like of the Guardians as they are the most concerned with analyzing facts (not ideas, but still better off than the other 3) of all 4. Whereas ESTJs are just concerned with implementing concrete knowledge. Or at least more concerned with that than the ISTJ.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #14
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    I'm usually able to tell the difference between an ENTJ and ESTJ. Their Te function manifests itself in very different ways based on their different auxiliary functions. Therefore, the strategic intelligence of the Ni and the logistical intelligence of the Si appear very different.

    The ESTJ tends to make sure everything is in order -- they are the prototype bosses. The ENTJ is more inclined to take risks and change things.

    However, I think the ENTJ seems more like an ESTP. They can both seem adventurous and athletic at first, and they both tend to be risk takers, but the ENTJ is more concerned with a long-range vision -- they'll use SP-like tactics as a means to an end, so it ultimately is an NT strategy. (That's why I typed Vic Mackey of The Shield as an ENTJ, because it is clear that he's very strategic.)

  5. #15
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    I've been paging through Type Talk at Work, by Otto Kroeger et al.

    Two comparative table entries, if accurate, affirm my Thinking preference.

    The first set: Thinkers "procrastinate about working on their relationships," which is obscure but somewhat reflective of me; Feelers "procrastinate about working to resolve conflicts," which I have witnessed several times since our company was acquired, and which frustrates me greatly.

    The second set: in a stress guide, Thinkers need "an opportunity to...confront things and challenge them; often they like a win/lose reward"; and are thought to build character by "experiencing powerlessness or lack of control," which I can't stand.

    Forer or not, it's interesting. This book, incidentally, is a goldmine of tables and charts.

  6. #16
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I'm usually able to tell the difference between an ENTJ and ESTJ. Their Te function manifests itself in very different ways based on their different auxiliary functions. Therefore, the strategic intelligence of the Ni and the logistical intelligence of the Si appear very different.

    The ESTJ tends to make sure everything is in order -- they are the prototype bosses. The ENTJ is more inclined to take risks and change things.

    However, I think the ENTJ seems more like an ESTP. They can both seem adventurous and athletic at first, and they both tend to be risk takers, but the ENTJ is more concerned with a long-range vision -- they'll use SP-like tactics as a means to an end, so it ultimately is an NT strategy. (That's why I typed Vic Mackey of The Shield as an ENTJ, because it is clear that he's very strategic.)
    Yes ENTJ definitely seems like an ESTP! Especially with the superior Extroverted Judging function when being an SP is almost exclusively about having a supeior Extroverted Perceiving function?

    How about the ENTP is the most SP-like for that matter? ESTP-Like?

    ENTJs seem athletic and adventurous because of raw extroversion and their Te externalizes their Intuition and makes it look like an Ne.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #17
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    I've been paging through Type Talk at Work, by Otto Kroeger et al. ... This book, incidentally, is a goldmine of tables and charts.
    I'm very happy with the Kroeger books. I think they have widespread appeal and are exceptionally readable.

    Hey--how about posting a review of TTaW in the book review thread?
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  8. #18
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Hey--how about posting a review of TTaW in the book review thread?
    I shall. In an appeal to perceiving, I'll leave the submission date open-ended.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes ENTJ definitely seems like an ESTP! Especially with the superior Extroverted Judging function when being an SP is almost exclusively about having a supeior Extroverted Perceiving function?

    How about the ENTP is the most SP-like for that matter? ESTP-Like?

    ENTJs seem athletic and adventurous because of raw extroversion and their Te externalizes their Intuition and makes it look like an Ne.
    Nah, an ENTP will probably come across as more idea-oriented and, according to Sensors, very obnoxious. An ENTP is likely to be very quirky to a "normal" person. They usually come up with really cool, but crazy ideas. And as dominant Ne types, their ideas will tend to be very superficial and flawed in logic, until they can analyze them with their auxiliary Ti function.

    The ESTPs I've seen tend to act like pimps -- they are very good at a more in-the-moment persuasion.

    ENTPs and ESTPs tend to be good liars. And they are often really good at getting others to believe them. The ENTP, with practice, will likely lie by coming up with a convincing but untruthful story, while the ESTP will likely lie by telling others what they like to hear, but they can get others to believe them by effectively using flattering gestures. They promote themselves with a more physical charm.

  10. #20
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    What do you guys think of this?
    After re-reading them, your analysis is quite good, however I am unsure based on how you show your results.... does the type see themselves this way, or others? Cleary when taking the temperament assessment, I result in improvisor/theorist. Under Keirsey, I usually showed rational, idealist, artisan and guardian.

    There has been some tweaking of Keirsey's original theory, by one of his prize pupils (Linda V. Berens). Best Fit has changed the names of the four temperaments and tweaked their core values. I think much was the result of SP types finding Keirsey's implication that we are hedonistic, offensive:
    The Catalyst Temperament
    (Diplomatic Skill Set)

    The core needs are for the meaning and significance that come from having a sense of purpose and working toward some greater good. They need to have a sense of unique identity. They value unity, self-actualization, and authenticity. People of this temperament prefer cooperative interactions with a focus on ethics and morality. They tend to trust their intuition and impressions first and then seek to find the logic and the data to support them. Given their need for empathic relationships, they learn more easily when they can relate to the instructor and the group.

    The Stabilizer Temperament
    (Logistical Skill Set)

    The core needs are for group membership and responsibility. They need to know they are doing the responsible thing. They value stability, security, and a sense of community. They trust hierarchy and authority and may be surprised when others go against these social structures. People of this temperament prefer cooperative actions with a focus on standards and norms. Their orientation is to their past experiences, and they like things sequenced and structured. They tend to look for the practical applications of what they are learning.

    The Theorist Temperament
    (Strategic Skill Set)

    The core needs are for mastery of concepts, knowledge, and competence. People of this temperament want to understand the operating principles of the universe and to learn or even develop theories for everything. They value expertise, logical consistency, concepts, and ideas and seek progress. They tend toward pragmatic, utilitarian actions with a technology focus. They trust logic above all else. They tend to be skeptical and highly value precision in language. Their learning style is conceptual, and they want to know the underlying principles that generate the details and facts rather than the details alone.

    The Improviser Temperament
    (Tactical Skill Set)

    The core needs are to have the freedom to act without hindrance and to see a marked result from action. People of this temperament highly value aesthetics, whether in nature or art. Their energies are focused on skillful performance, variety, and stimulation. They tend toward pragmatic, utilitarian actions with a focus on technique. They trust their impulses and have a drive to action. They learn best experientially and when they see the relevance of what they are learning to what they are doing. They enjoy hands-on, applied learning with a fast pace and freedom to explore.

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