Ode to the Processes--Ni

[Ene]

I wasn't going to do Ni in my ode to the processes on account of how many Ni threads are on the forum already, but after sitting in a conference room full of other committee members and interviewing people for a position in our building, and having it repeatedly pointed out to me all day long that my way of seeing is "different," I have changed my mind. Doggone it, my dominant process deserves its own Ode To... thread! And what do they mean "different" anyway? The things I said seemed pretty obvious to me, but people looked at me like I had just said, "The emperor is naked!" I've been the minority [and I don't just mean culturally] all day long. I've been the odd man, (I mean woman) out all day.

One person, no two people, pointed out that I didn't care what people thought of me today (I suppose that in a way that's a compliment), which didn't bother me but I wondered what kinds of things that I do that makes me seem "not to care" in their eyes.


More than once today comments were made about my "unique perspectives." I'm not sure they meant them in a good way. They giggled and said it light-heartedly, BUT there was an underlying "something." I tend to think I'm normal. I "feel" normal and I think I mostly look normal, but today I realized that there is something that others find "odd" about me, but I really don't know what it is. I guess I've vented a little here, but I think it's okay. I think it's a good example of how Ni can see the "obvious" but others can't see it because they don't want to see it, because it flies in the face of what they want. I can't describe what makes me "odd" to them, only that they jokingly tease me about it, only they aren't really joking. Somehow, I make them uncomfortable without even trying.

I think reference was made to the way that I slice through everything and go straight to heart of the matter and bring clarity to a situation. I'm not sure that most people are comfortable with that, but I don't know how "not" to do that. I got the impression that people didn't want clarity. They wanted ambiguity so that they could justify illogical and unfair decisions. They hired, against my protests, two of the least qualified candidates and I know they chose not to see the facts and maybe they don't know how to listen to their guts. My gut and the evidence in front of me told me to choose otherwise, so I did. I just got out-voted. Still, in addition, the candidates I pushed for had credentials, objective materials to document that they were the most experienced and best qualified, but apparently we hire based on who a person is kin to and what social circle she's a part of. So sad, but that's small town politics. I guess.

Oh, well, my gut tells me that it'll all come out in the wash but that the council did "somebody" wrong today. I hope she gets a job somewhere else making more money. She is a hard worker with a good track record. Her only "fault" is not being born in the "right" family, meaning one of the few that run this town. Of course, that's the elephant in the room, the one none of us are supposed to see, but it's an elephant, so I can't NOT see it. It's huge.

Still, I love me, if that makes any sense. I am at home in my Ni-dom. It's a comfortable place for me, until I have to take it out into a world that sees it as foreign.

 

[Poki]

Yeah Ni is a beast of it's own. People really do like the ...let me live in my own head...thing. they don't want to see reality for what it is and prefer to live in denial or get butt hurt when reality is brought to fore front. I love the saying...life sucks and then you die...unless i just made it up...maybe its just my saying...oh well...because in a twisted way it is true, while not being true. We all have moments in life that suck and then we die. It's a funny twisted morbid way to look at things. It also is a good indicator to get a reaction on how people think. Do they agree, disagree, or see it for what it is. People like my mom fight anything that she perceives as negative because she doesn't like it. When to me it's just life, sucks, but it's meant to just be life...not negative. I will make a comment that most people generally see as negative and I just see the reality, not the judgement of it. Anyway...I think I am just rambling now. Just stuff your post made me think of.

 

[Forever]

It's an uphill battle when it comes to honoring Ni or Fe, I have the same problem too. I think the guys at your workplace may know the heart of the issue, but just don't care.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=16382]Ene[/MENTION]:

Many of my colleagues are N-types, whether Ni or Ne (yes, I realize they are different), so divergent thinking, thinking "outside the box", seeing through the facts to what they mean, is commonplace and unremarkable for the most part. People might find a particular conclusion unexpected, but are used to that and will do it themselves at times.

It is outside of work that I typically get the kind of reactions you describe, especially in my volunteer group. They describe me as their "systems/big picture thinker" and try to get my input on any kind of strategic decision. I have surprised them by my ability to reframe issues to our benefit, in essence having our cake and eating it, too. I am often surprised by how easily I see how to do something, and then how much time and painstaking effort it takes to convey that to others.

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=16382]Ene[/MENTION]:

Many of my colleagues are N-types, whether Ni or Ne (yes, I realize they are different), so divergent thinking, thinking "outside the box", seeing through the facts to what they mean, is commonplace and unremarkable for the most part. People might find a particular conclusion unexpected, but are used to that and will do it themselves at times.

It is outside of work that I typically get the kind of reactions you describe, especially in my volunteer group. They describe me as their "systems/big picture thinker" and try to get my input on any kind of strategic decision. I have surprised them by my ability to reframe issues to our benefit, in essence having our cake and eating it, too. I am often surprised by how easily I see how to do something, and then how much time and painstaking effort it takes to convey that to others.

I have been in many convoy with an INTJ and another person and have had to rephrase what the INTJ said to help others understand. Either break it down and mention the assumptions, or take it to an analogy that is understood by the other person.

Funnily enough I can't do this with INFJ, I guess due to F vs T. I just either get it or don't and instead of coming to a conclusion we just butt heads or agree to the point where the convoy is just dropped and done. Like there is no point because it's already happened, realized, etc. No transfer of knowledge is happening. With that being said, I have never really got into major arguments or anything with INFJ, we just kinda disagree without a very good understanding of each other. I really do enjoy INFJ even with the understanding issues we face.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm not entirely sure how to play this 'Ode to <specific function>' game, so I'm probably doing this wrong, but wanted to throw in a boy howdy here nonetheless.

I wasn't going to do Ni in my ode to the processes on account of how many Ni threads are on the forum already, but after sitting in a conference room full of other committee members and interviewing people for a position in our building, and having it repeatedly pointed out to me all day long that my way of seeing is "different," I have changed my mind. Doggone it, my dominant process deserves its own Ode To... thread! And what do they mean "different" anyway? The things I said seemed pretty obvious to me, but people looked at me like I had just said, "The emperor is naked!" I've been the minority [and I don't just mean culturally] all day long. I've been the odd man, (I mean woman) out all day.

One person, no two people, pointed out that I didn't care what people thought of me today (I suppose that in a way that's a compliment), which didn't bother me but I wondered what kinds of things that I do that makes me seem "not to care" in their eyes.


More than once today comments were made about my "unique perspectives." I'm not sure they meant them in a good way. They giggled and said it light-heartedly, BUT there was an underlying "something." I tend to think I'm normal. I "feel" normal and I think I mostly look normal, but today I realized that there is something that others find "odd" about me, but I really don't know what it is. I guess I've vented a little here, but I think it's okay. I think it's a good example of how Ni can see the "obvious" but others can't see it because they don't want to see it, because it flies in the face of what they want. I can't describe what makes me "odd" to them, only that they jokingly tease me about it, only they aren't really joking. Somehow, I make them uncomfortable without even trying.

You once likened this to an episode of STNG, where Beverly Crusher got stuck in something like another dimension (or another pocket of time, or something)- where she could see everyone else, but no once could see her. (Right? Or am I remembering this incorrectly? Or am I mistaken and you were likening it to a different kind of experience?) I remember because it resonated so much. Sometimes I get so sick of hearing the equivalent of "What's that? Timmy fell down the well?*" in response to something I'm trying to articulate. It's as if all they hear is something akin to "WAH WAH WAHN" like adults in a peanut cartoon.

Or another episode of TNG is coming to mind, where the crew has to interact with a group of people that speak only in metaphor- and it takes the crew almost the whole episode to understand wth they're trying to communicate. Sometimes I feel like I must be putting others through that much work, or something. (Leaving aside for now my rant on how communicating only in metaphor without understanding direct language isn't even possible- there are gaping holes in that storyline - the challenge of often only being able to communicate something in metaphor is real.)


*In case the reference is lost: that's from Lassie Come Home- a response human characters give to Lassie's barking.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I wasn't going to do Ni in my ode to the processes on account of how many Ni threads are on the forum already, but after sitting in a conference room full of other committee members and interviewing people for a position in our building, and having it repeatedly pointed out to me all day long that my way of seeing is "different," I have changed my mind. Doggone it, my dominant process deserves its own Ode To... thread! And what do they mean "different" anyway? The things I said seemed pretty obvious to me, but people looked at me like I had just said, "The emperor is naked!" I've been the minority [and I don't just mean culturally] all day long. I've been the odd man, (I mean woman) out all day.

One person, no two people, pointed out that I didn't care what people thought of me today (I suppose that in a way that's a compliment), which didn't bother me but I wondered what kinds of things that I do that makes me seem "not to care" in their eyes.


More than once today comments were made about my "unique perspectives." I'm not sure they meant them in a good way. They giggled and said it light-heartedly, BUT there was an underlying "something." I tend to think I'm normal. I "feel" normal and I think I mostly look normal, but today I realized that there is something that others find "odd" about me, but I really don't know what it is. I guess I've vented a little here, but I think it's okay. I think it's a good example of how Ni can see the "obvious" but others can't see it because they don't want to see it, because it flies in the face of what they want. I can't describe what makes me "odd" to them, only that they jokingly tease me about it, only they aren't really joking. Somehow, I make them uncomfortable without even trying.

I think reference was made to the way that I slice through everything and go straight to heart of the matter and bring clarity to a situation. I'm not sure that most people are comfortable with that, but I don't know how "not" to do that. I got the impression that people didn't want clarity. They wanted ambiguity so that they could justify illogical and unfair decisions. They hired, against my protests, two of the least qualified candidates and I know they chose not to see the facts and maybe they don't know how to listen to their guts. My gut and the evidence in front of me told me to choose otherwise, so I did. I just got out-voted. Still, in addition, the candidates I pushed for had credentials, objective materials to document that they were the most experienced and best qualified, but apparently we hire based on who a person is kin to and what social circle she's a part of. So sad, but that's small town politics. I guess.

Oh, well, my gut tells me that it'll all come out in the wash but that the council did "somebody" wrong today. I hope she gets a job somewhere else making more money. She is a hard worker with a good track record. Her only "fault" is not being born in the "right" family, meaning one of the few that run this town. Of course, that's the elephant in the room, the one none of us are supposed to see, but it's an elephant, so I can't NOT see it. It's huge.

Still, I love me, if that makes any sense. I am at home in my Ni-dom. It's a comfortable place for me, until I have to take it out into a world that sees it as foreign.

It was very difficult to read this and not become infuriated. Willfully short-sighted people are frustrating to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

I will make a comment that most people generally see as negative and I just see the reality, not the judgement of it.

This is also infuriating. Well, not the act of stating reality, but being accused of being negative for simply stating the truth. I deal with this fairly often.

If you have to sugarcoat the truth to the point of distortion, or worse, simply avoid calling it out to others when it is in plain sight, then you are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

I'm not entirely sure how to play this 'Ode to <specific function>' game, so I'm probably doing this wrong, but wanted to throw in a boy howdy here nonetheless.



You once likened this to an episode of STNG, where Beverly Crusher got stuck in something like another dimension (or another pocket of time, or something)- where she could see everyone else, but no once could see her. (Right? Or am I remembering this incorrectly? Or am I mistaken and you were likening it to a different kind of experience?) I remember because it resonated so much. Sometimes I get so sick of hearing the equivalent of "What's that? Timmy fell down the well?*" in response to something I'm trying to articulate. It's as if all they hear is something akin to "WAH WAH WAHN" like adults in a peanut cartoon.

Or another episode of TNG is coming to mind, where the crew has to interact with a group of people that speak only in metaphor- and it takes the crew almost the whole episode to understand wth they're trying to communicate. Sometimes I feel like I must be putting others through that much work, or something. (Leaving aside for now my rant on how communicating only in metaphor without understanding direct language isn't even possible- there are gaping holes in that storyline - the challenge of often only being able to communicate something in metaphor is real.)


*In case the reference is lost: that's from Lassie Come Home- a response human characters give to Lassie's barking.

The Episode is titled "Remember Me" from season 4. Great reference, btw.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] you did a beautiful Ode To... The idea was to take each of the functions and share anecdotes or real life experiences involving how you have seen that function manifest in yourself or in others, kind of like snippets of life and as you know, that leaves things wide open

[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] Yes, you're right. It would be different if I had been trying to be bull-headed or negative, but I wasn't. I merely wanted them to follow the course of fairness, ethics and logic [the evidences of who was most qualified for the job was in the folders right in front of us.]

The committee was made up of three very loud, very pushy ladies, three "yes" people [who just went along with whatever the loud ones said] and me, a stoic voice of reason that kept slicing through the social niceties and throwing a cog in their pre-determined machine. [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], you are very fortunate to have such co-workers.

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] Yes!!! I do remember talking with you about the time Dr. Crusher was trapped in another dimension [Remember Me], and no one could hear her. It was much like that in the meeting, except they CHOSE not to hear me. They even commented on my uncanny ability to put things in their proper perspective. They just chose to ignore them.

It is as [MENTION=19700]Starcrash[/MENTION] said, they are willfully short-sighted.

I've been on that committee for three years. I got chosen because the law requires them to have a minority member, and I was the only person in the building that fit the bill. But I'm done with it. I told them I wanted off months ago, and they've been searching for a new minority member. Minority, I'm convinced doesn't mean 'the person who's not White,' It means "the one we don't have to listen to but we have to have her on the committee or the law will come down on us." LOL. Basically, since I've always been this quiet little person who minds her own business they expected me to be another "yes" person to the reigning queen bees or should I call them wanna-be "WASP?" But I'm not a "yes" person. I'm a "let's do the right thing, the fair thing, the honest thing" person, a "let's treat all people like they matter and give everybody a chance" person. I have never been good at following the rules just because they are rules or just because somebody who got handed a position of power due to the family they were born into dictates to me that I should do them. I am a team player so long as the rules are fair, logical and make sense. And sometimes, my INFP friend [my true friend] tells me, those are the most dangerous people of all. So, I must pick my battles [prioritize], and the battles on that committee take up too much time and effort, and yield too little results. I want to channel that into my martial arts school where there are no political games, no red tape and the only committee is my partner and I. There, ultimately, the buck stops with...me.

 

[miss fortune]

Ni isn't my primary or secondary but it's somewhere in there

for me it's mostly the gloomy cloud that informs people that, while something may look like a good idea to them now, in the future it'll bring us X, Y and Z and very bad things will happen. it usually takes a moment for these things to occur to me after something is mentioned... something will feel off, like it's not right, and then I practically work through how things will actually work with the new "improvement" or rule in place to see how a simulation would work and then I encounter the problem with it

I do that at work from time to time and it annoys my supervisors, who were the ones who think that the idea will be splendid... most of the time I am the one who is right in the end though. I was just looking out for myself and my section when I mentioned that things wouldn't work out how they said that they would... why complain that it's negative when it's just a logical conclusion?

that's not a pure example, but as I said, I'm not a primary user by any means.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

that's not a pure example, but as I said, I'm not a primary user by any means.

It's nice to get multiples perspectives and not just those of the Ni doms.

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] you did a beautiful Ode To... The idea was to take each of the functions and share anecdotes or real life experiences involving how you have seen that function manifest in yourself or in others, kind of like snippets of life and as you know, that leaves things wide open

[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] Yes, you're right. It would be different if I had been trying to be bull-headed or negative, but I wasn't. I merely wanted them to follow the course of fairness, ethics and logic [the evidences of who was most qualified for the job was in the folders right in front of us.]

The committee was made up of three very loud, very pushy ladies, three "yes" people [who just went along with whatever the loud ones said] and me, a stoic voice of reason that kept slicing through the social niceties and throwing a cog in their pre-determined machine. [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], you are very fortunate to have such co-workers.

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] Yes!!! I do remember talking with you about the time Dr. Crusher was trapped in another dimension [Remember Me], and no one could hear her. It was much like that in the meeting, except they CHOSE not to hear me. They even commented on my uncanny ability to put things in their proper perspective. They just chose to ignore them.

It is as [MENTION=19700]Starcrash[/MENTION] said, they are willfully short-sighted.

I've been on that committee for three years. I got chosen because the law requires them to have a minority member, and I was the only person in the building that fit the bill. But I'm done with it. I told them I wanted off months ago, and they've been searching for a new minority member. Minority, I'm convinced doesn't mean 'the person who's not White,' It means "the one we don't have to listen to but we have to have her on the committee or the law will come down on us." LOL. Basically, since I've always been this quiet little person who minds her own business they expected me to be another "yes" person to the reigning queen bees or should I call them wanna-be "WASP?" But I'm not a "yes" person. I'm a "let's do the right thing, the fair thing, the honest thing" person, a "let's treat all people like they matter and give everybody a chance" person. I have never been good at following the rules just because they are rules or just because somebody who got handed a position of power due to the family they were born into dictates to me that I should do them. I am a team player so long as the rules are fair, logical and make sense. And sometimes, my INFP friend [my true friend] tells me, those are the most dangerous people of all. So, I must pick my battles [prioritize], and the battles on that committee take up too much time and effort, and yield too little results. I want to channel that into my martial arts school where there are no political games, no red tape and the only committee is my partner and I. There, ultimately, the buck stops with...me.

When you build your team based on some office hierarchy crap that's exactly what you have because that's what you put first, that's what your office will excel in, not what the actual job is. Being the lead on front end I am one of the people in the interviews and that has a say in hiring. Me, my boss, and another lead on backend. Istp, estp, intp. We tend to judge based partly on ability, partly on personality(not mbti, just persons personality. I don't even think of mbti when deciding. More friendly, etc.) And the last is desire to learn and grow. Ability decides where they start at, what level. Desire to grow is a huge one if ability is not as high. We don't play office politics and we have a very successful team that works very well together. We also have a good range of personalities from ip's to ep's to ij's. And a pretty split range of s vs n. No ej's though. Business analysts tend to be more of the ej field as well as other groups. Not so much developer/programmer.