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  1. #61
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Look, I agree with you that MBTI can be useful and I am sure it is used in good faith here.

    But at bottom I don't want to be seen as useful - I don't want to be used - I want to be valued for my own sake, as I am sure you do too.

    So in a similar way MBTI can have an extrinsic use but I can't help asking, what is its intrinsic value?

    What are the deeper values that MBTI teaches?

    It seems to me it teaches blind faith and reification.

    This may not matter on a day-to-day basis when used in good faith, but almost all members of cults act in good faith such as the cult of Bhagwan Ragneesh's Orange cult and Jim Jones' cult.

    This is the odd thing about cults - they attract intelligent, well intentioned members - the best and the brightest - until it is time to pass the Cool-Aid.
    A group will always be judged by it's extremities and extremist MBTI accolytes are both obvious and often wrong. However that again is the people and not the theories. The theory is supposed to allow other's to better appreciate you for you.

    For example, my father (ENTJ) has gone into business with an ENFP from Ireland. He said to me over the phone that this ENFP was writing what they wanted on the website. I exclaimed at him releasing control to an ENFP of all people, in jest. His remark came back "Oh no he's quite good. I rarely have to correct much." now with MBTI knowledge I know he didn't mean it to sound patronising... not that I let him off with it

    My SO is an ESTP and she's a messy person. Now without having studied other ways of thinking, through MBTI, I would constantly chastise her over the mess. She'd get peeved and no doubt I'd have left. With that knowledge I can berrate her much more effectively

    Perhaps your message should be "Be careful how you weild that system" more so than "MBTI sucks"?

    I must say though, from an MBTI perspective, you don't sound like an ESFP. I'm not saying you aren't, I'm just a little surprised (that's a good thing btw).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #62
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So the interesting question is, how can we save the baby?
    Make a thread where those righteous beings who use the system for good can out and ridicule those who use it for evil and nefarious ends!!

    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #63
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I would say it teaches the value that no one type is better or worse than any other. Extroverted is not better that introverted. Introverts are not better than extroverts. Thinkers are not better than feelers, etc.

    It might seem like a minor thing to some people, but it is a big thing to me. I gotten a lot of criticism in my life for being too introverted, too day dreamy, too lost in my own thoughts, thinking too much, not conciderate enough of other people's feelings, etc. In otherwords too INT, not enough ESF. So it is very comforting to know that, at least to some people, these are just personality differences and not character flaws.

    Ilah

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Look, I agree with you that MBTI can be useful and I am sure it is used in good faith here.

    But at bottom I don't want to be seen as useful - I don't want to be used - I want to be valued for my own sake, as I am sure you do too.

    So in a similar way MBTI can have an extrinsic use but I can't help asking, what is its intrinsic value?

    What are the deeper values that MBTI teaches?

    It seems to me it teaches blind faith and reification.

    This may not matter on a day-to-day basis when used in good faith, but almost all members of cults act in good faith such as the cult of Bhagwan Ragneesh's Orange cult and Jim Jones' cult.

    This is the odd thing about cults - they attract intelligent, well intentioned members - the best and the brightest - until it is time to pass the Cool-Aid.

  4. #64
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    A group will always be judged by it's extremities and extremist MBTI accolytes are both obvious and often wrong. However that again is the people and not the theories. The theory is supposed to allow other's to better appreciate you for you.

    For example, my father (ENTJ) has gone into business with an ENFP from Ireland. He said to me over the phone that this ENFP was writing what they wanted on the website. I exclaimed at him releasing control to an ENFP of all people, in jest. His remark came back "Oh no he's quite good. I rarely have to correct much." now with MBTI knowledge I know he didn't mean it to sound patronising... not that I let him off with it

    My SO is an ESTP and she's a messy person. Now without having studied other ways of thinking, through MBTI, I would constantly chastise her over the mess. She'd get peeved and no doubt I'd have left. With that knowledge I can berrate her much more effectively

    Perhaps your message should be "Be careful how you weild that system" more so than "MBTI sucks"?

    I must say though, from an MBTI perspective, you don't sound like an ESFP. I'm not saying you aren't, I'm just a little surprised (that's a good thing btw).
    Yes, it is good to understand our strengths and weaknesses. And it is a good exercise in tolerance as we see here as MBTI is both well run and tolerant.

    So I ask for a little tolerance for me for I know criticism usually hurts and is often unwelcome.

    However I am suggesting it hurts mainly because we tend to identify with any group to which we belong.

    For instance the Bay of Pigs disaster was caused by group think. And the way to avoid group think is by tolerating criticism of the group itself - and this is fairly rare.

    So I am suggesting we think not only in terms of the types in MBTI, but we also think of the group itself - and a way to do this is by questioning assumptions.

    I am also suggesting we don't identify completely with the group to which we belong.

    So it's like thinking two thoughts at the same time.

    And as a personal explanation, I am not saying MBTI sucks, I am saying let's take a step back.

  5. #65
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I must say though, from an MBTI perspective, you don't sound like an ESFP. I'm not saying you aren't, I'm just a little surprised (that's a good thing btw).
    Oh yes, I forgot - Jeffster gave me my type, ESFP, however I am open to further suggestions.

    What type do you think I am?

  6. #66
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    I would say it teaches the value that no one type is better or worse than any other. Extroverted is not better that introverted. Introverts are not better than extroverts. Thinkers are not better than feelers, etc.

    It might seem like a minor thing to some people, but it is a big thing to me. I gotten a lot of criticism in my life for being too introverted, too day dreamy, too lost in my own thoughts, thinking too much, not conciderate enough of other people's feelings, etc. In otherwords too INT, not enough ESF. So it is very comforting to know that, at least to some people, these are just personality differences and not character flaws.

    Ilah
    You sound a bit like me. I have always been different - and for a very long time I thought there was something wrong with me - so I explored myself in encounter groups, in Reichian groups and very importantly, with those I fell in love with.

    And I found I am completely free of psychosis and am only mildly neurotic. However I am highly excitable and the literature describes me as over-excitable (OE). I prefer to describe myself as emotionally labile.

    Also I have the facility to easily enter and leave trances. This is enjoyable and useful, as in a trance I have total recall. Also I can concentrate for long periods of time.

    Also I learn very well when I can direct my own learning. And I can learn well when I like my teacher.

    At school my chaplain, Fr Fletcher, said, integrity is a real thing for me. And he was right - intellectual integrity is my watchword.

    And unfortunately I am overly critical of those whom I see as lacking in intellectual integrity. And this gets me into trouble.

    And last but not least, and I hesitate to tell you, but I have a high measured IQ. Most people don't like me telling them this because they think I am saying I am superior. But as you say, Ilah, I am not superior, I am just different.

    And the most important thing I have found is to learn to accept and enjoy my difference - just like you.

  7. #67
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    This article illustrates the problem quite well, but I wonder if Functional Analysis is worth anything to begin with.

    J/P = problem
    The article doesn't reflect the nomenclature of Jungian type theory as coded by Myers. For example it says,
    "One "Introverted Intuitive with Thinking" takes MBTI and comes out an INTP, another "Introverted Intuitive with Thinking" comes out an INTJ. This introverted complexity is not limited to these two types. All other introvert types too are affected by it. But what interesting is that extrovert types are affected by it as well, but not as badly as introvert types."

    Actually someone following Myers' work would say that an INTP prefers Introverted Thinking with Intuition. Jung described this separately from Introverted Thinking with Intuition. The dominant is inherent in the code because that's how the codes were set up. It IS confusing if you haven't studied the nomenclature which is why people are supposed to take a class before interpreting actual MBTI results for other people...but it isn't that hard to understand once it's been pointed out that J/P points to the function used in the external world which, by definition, is the auxiliary for I's. We keep our best side inside unless we want to share...
    edcoaching

  8. #68
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oh don't get me wrong, understanding who wrote the theory and their aims for it are essential to understand the theory... I just advocate not throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    Well, keep in mind that Briggs had actually published articles on HER theories about human differences before Jung was published in English. two people in different countries simultaneously derived teh same theory. With the biases against women inherent in the times (and still today, sigh) they became students of Jung's work. Briggs and Myers were Quakers and honestly thought if they could make the theory accessible they could help people get along, bring about world peace. They started working on the instrument during WWII...
    edcoaching

  9. #69
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Briggs and Myers were Quakers and honestly thought if they could make the theory accessible they could help people get along, bring about world peace. They started working on the instrument during WWII...
    That's interesting.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  10. #70
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, it is good to understand our strengths and weaknesses. And it is a good exercise in tolerance as we see here as MBTI is both well run and tolerant.

    So I ask for a little tolerance for me for I know criticism usually hurts and is often unwelcome.

    However I am suggesting it hurts mainly because we tend to identify with any group to which we belong.

    For instance the Bay of Pigs disaster was caused by group think. And the way to avoid group think is by tolerating criticism of the group itself - and this is fairly rare.

    So I am suggesting we think not only in terms of the types in MBTI, but we also think of the group itself - and a way to do this is by questioning assumptions.

    I am also suggesting we don't identify completely with the group to which we belong.

    So it's like thinking two thoughts at the same time.

    And as a personal explanation, I am not saying MBTI sucks, I am saying let's take a step back.
    What sucks is unethical use of type theory or any other theory.
    • First we need ethical use of instruments, whether it's the real MBTI, the Kiersy, Golden, PTI, JTI or any free, unverified internet version. The ethical way to help people discover their own type is to A) explain the preferences and/or functions and allow them to self select the preferences that describe them best. B) Provide instrument results--all tools currently available are self-reporting instruments, not diagnostic tools like the MMPI, and need to be interpreted accordingly, which means the person tkaing it gets to argue with the results. C) Provide a full type description (hopefully one that is accurate and without type bias) so they can see if the description fits them
    • Ethical use of the theory means that A) all types are considered equally valuable B) at all times it is used to expand and not limit opportunities. For example a career counselor should never say, "You're an ESTJ. You don't have the skills to be a preschool teacher." Instead it should be, "What skills and interests do you have that attract you to that profession...here's what's the norm...how might you fit in..."
    • Being a type expert doesn't make one an expert facilitator/counselor/educator/spiritual director. Those are separate skills that one might add type expertise to.
    • Anyone who is an expert knows there is always more to learn about the theory, about how it plays out in the real world, and what is useful and not useful...


    Just FYI Association for Psychological Type International is a membership organization run by volunteers, including me. Our members use MBTI, Golden, PTI, JTI, Kiersey, INteraction Styles, DISC--you name it. Our mission is promoting the practical application and ethical use of type. I get as upset as Victor when it's used to label, demean, or box in people.

    Didn't mean for this to get so long but our members really are a bunch of people, worldwide, who want others to get along. We dont' publish the MBTI or any other instrument.
    edcoaching

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