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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    @Victor,
    Who started an idea is irrelevant to whether an idea is good or not. If you don't like Jung, fair enough, but what does that have to do with whether the MBTI is useful or not.
    I know this is a commonly held viewpoint but I can help but feel queasy when I discovered that Martin Heidegger, the founder of Existentialism, was an unrepentant member of the NAZI Party. I felt bound to question Existentialism. Particularly as his follower, Jean-Paul Sartre, was a Stalinist. I think there are just too many bodies to sweep under the carpet.

    Perhaps a scientific theory is independent of its author because it is falsifiable, but an unfalsifiable social theory like Jung's seem to carry the smell of the author.

  2. #52
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    MBTI was supposedly based on Jung's function study. I meant that you don't have to know that, and it might be better if you don't. I think they went way too far with implying (For an INTP) Ti-Ne-Si-Fe based on preferring solitude, imagination, hard-heartedness, and laziness. They're not necessarily tied together. I thought that's what you were getting at earlier.
    Well yes.. that's taking it an additional step further.

    What I meant specifically was people looking into whether the functions should be one way around or another not based on people they know but just simply based on some warped ideal that the pattern will be symetrical or some such nonsense without ever actually looking at the people it describes to see if it is symetrical or not.

    I find it irritating that people set out with the idea that a pattern should look like X and then alter every pattern forcibly to match X instead of entertaining the possibility that this pattern is not similar to X or even that the pattern is too complex to map right now so accept the things we can see working and go from there instead of trying to warp their thinking so X is always right.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #53
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I know this is a commonly held viewpoint but I can help but feel queasy when I discovered that Martin Heidegger, the founder of Existentialism, was an unrepentant member of the NAZI Party. I felt bound to question Existentialism. Particularly as his follower, Jean-Paul Sartre, was a Stalinist. I think there are just too many bodies to sweep under the carpet.

    Perhaps a scientific theory is independent of its author because it is falsifiable, but an unfalsifiable social theory like Jung's seem to carry the smell of the author.
    Oh don't get me wrong, understanding who wrote the theory and their aims for it are essential to understand the theory... I just advocate not throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Well yes.. that's taking it an additional step further.

    What I meant specifically was people looking into whether the functions should be one way around or another not based on people they know but just simply based on some warped ideal that the pattern will be symetrical or some such nonsense without ever actually looking at the people it describes to see if it is symetrical or not.

    I find it irritating that people set out with the idea that a pattern should look like X and then alter every pattern forcibly to match X instead of entertaining the possibility that this pattern is not similar to X or even that the pattern is too complex to map right now so accept the things we can see working and go from there instead of trying to warp their thinking so X is always right.
    OK, I didn't misunderstand. That's exactly what I'm saying. The only results that don't seem drawn from a hat in this arena of thought are the ones based on repeated and careful observations of people. Keirsey does this well, and the Socionics researchers do it well with regard to relationships.

    But again, Functions are so all over the place on everyone, and so hard to define through observation (self or external), that I don't trust them at all. The whole study reeks of hokum.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    ...but what does that have to do with whether the MBTI is useful or not.
    Look, I agree with you that MBTI can be useful and I am sure it is used in good faith here.

    But at bottom I don't want to be seen as useful - I don't want to be used - I want to be valued for my own sake, as I am sure you do too.

    So in a similar way MBTI can have an extrinsic use but I can't help asking, what is its intrinsic value?

    What are the deeper values that MBTI teaches?

    It seems to me it teaches blind faith and reification.

    This may not matter on a day-to-day basis when used in good faith, but almost all members of cults act in good faith such as the cult of Bhagwan Ragneesh's Orange cult and Jim Jones' cult.

    This is the odd thing about cults - they attract intelligent, well intentioned members - the best and the brightest - until it is time to pass the Cool-Aid.

  6. #56
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    This article illustrates the problem quite well, but I wonder if Functional Analysis is worth anything to begin with.

    J/P = problem
    I think that article shows the problem quite well.

    J's are rational are they? What about ENFJs? Rational? I think not. certainly not when the bit is between their teeth. Yet they have Fe as their first function and are Js. They meet the criteria as set down by the pattern gurus and yet it doesn't work.

    Part of this is due to perspective, from a certain point of view ENFJs are completely rational... just not to outside observers...(ie everyone else).

    Part of it is due to human beings not conforming to patterns very well. Yes you can say that EJs are this and NTs are that but it's all generalisations. ENFJs are ENFJs, the pattern of the letters is irrelevant. An apple is not similar to metal not because it's spelt differently, that's just the GUI, they ARE different.

    People spend far too much time shouting at computers for not doing what they meant to ask it to do but lack the understanding to phrase it properly and also shouting at the MBTI because it doesn't match up to their concept of what a pattern should be.

    Now I've said all that I'm unsure of how to read your post... did you mean this article is indicative of the problem with people or the system?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oh don't get me wrong, understanding who wrote the theory and their aims for it are essential to understand the theory... I just advocate not throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    So the interesting question is, how can we save the baby?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So in a similar way MBTI can have an extrinsic use but I can't help asking, what is its intrinsic value?

    What are the deeper values that MBTI teaches?

    It seems to me it teaches blind faith and reification.
    None.
    None.
    It's just a framework; It does nothing.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think that article shows the problem quite well.

    Now I've said all that I'm unsure of how to read your post... did you mean this article is indicative of the problem with people or the system?
    It shows the problem with screwed up functions in MBTI, among other things.

    I think the practical solution until there's a better alternative is to ignore functions entirely, and just use the Keirsey method of grouping by temperament. If you categorize people into groups, any groups, and find commonality among those within each group, you have yourself a system. Functions are extraneous and problematic.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    None.
    None.
    It's just a framework; It does nothing.
    Poetry does nothing - we write it for its own sake.

    But MBTI was written by Mrs Briggs and her daughter specifically to fit British women into the war fighting machine.

    And MBTI today is used to fit us for jobs in corporations.

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