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  1. #31
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Ni is often described as butterfly thought because it's so nonlinear. Actually we're more likely to take a bit of a theory, see how it would help people, and spin off into new permutations that seem most likely to change the world.
    Ni doesnt follow one continuous line, it changes different perspectives. Its linear in the way of following a lot of different lines. Maybe it can feel like having a holistic approach, but Ni doesnt grasp a pattern as a whole like Ne does. Can you identify with that?

    Was your friend trained in critical thinking? Most of my INFJ colleagues and I are really good at glossing over flaws if we see value. If we don't see value we move on to something else...
    Yes, he was and hes also good at glossing over flaws. Sometimes I hate that, because I like to follow patterns and try to look how they manifest themselves and he says, no, stop, first we have to look at the exact definition of the words, which are used. I like to use the theory first and check if its as good as it promises to be.

  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I've seen many people taking the MBTI function orders and such as a pattern and then trying to rationalize the pattern against itself, looking for areas where the pattern does not match and so on. Now is it just me or is this a mistake? Surely the pattern is resulting from the study of people. The pattern itself is a result and not the primary source, ergo arguing over where it follows a trend and where it does not can only be done out of interest voiding any revelations stumbled upon during the investigation.

    I only highlight this as I've had many discussions where I get the feeling that people are basing their assumptions and advice more on an investigation and understanding of a pattern of results than on actual observation of the primary material, ie people.

    I'm not saying it's wrong necessarily, just challenging the approach.
    This sounds complicated.... I'm not sure I know what you mean.

    If you mean what I think you mean, then I think you have a point. It seems like people are often starting with the pattern, filling it in with their own experiences, and using their own experiences a way of interpreting things back to the pattern. Which is the wrong way, most likely. You shouldn't necessarily filter your experiences or your perceptions to fit them into a pattern. I think, rather, you should keep your perceptions and experiences intact, and only use the pattern where it matches them to express them, and admit the places where the pattern and the experiences don't completely match.

    It can be annoying when people start throwing out all the rationalizations for why a person could be a particular type, and getting mad at you if you question it or say it's unlikely, everyone else wanting to just jump on board and agree with the idea. It happens a lot actually... people throw out an idea, and everyone else just builds it up and says how great it is, adds some of their own interpretation and extension to it. Then if someone else comes along and pokes holes in it, everyone gets angry and defensive, at least dismissive, and often rationalize that you don't have a mature understanding, overanalyze, or are closed-minded.

    Does that make sense?

  3. #33
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    MBTI has been tested and found to be a reliable, valid self-reporting instrument. It will not hold up to diagnostic psychometrics because it wasn't designed to--Isabel didn't think people liked to be told who they were and that an interactive process would be better. It's reliability/validity is actually excellent by psychometric standards but is discounted by people who think it should fit the Bell curve because they haven't read the manual.

    Isabel and Katherine knew exactly what they were doing. No, they weren't psychiatrists--but they were college-educated which was extremely rare for women born in 1870 and 1900. They were taught to think and used their smarts (and Mr. Briggs' knowledge as head of teh Bureau of Standards) to actually invent two statistical techniques that no one else used until supercomputers were invented; Isabel ran the correlations involved by hand.

    Further Form M was developed via Item Response Theory and subjected to all kinds of research. But the publishers aren't interested in diagnostic tools; they make people suspicious and that isn't what's needed when you're trying to use the tool to improve interactions.

    It's like saying Bill Gates couldn't have built Microsoft because he didn't finish college...
    I couldn't understand why you would make such a misleading post until I discovered you have a vested interest - you are President of the Association for Psychological Type Int'l.

    I couldn't understand why you would mislead such vulnerable people until I realised you were pushing your own barrow.

    And although no astronomer believes in astrology, there is money to be made in astrology.

    And in the same way, although no psychometrician believes in MBTI, it is plain there is money to be made from MBTI.

    Integrity is one of the first virtues, while for a confidence man, a sucker is born every minute.

  4. #34
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I couldn't understand why you would make such a misleading post until I discovered you have a vested interest - you are President of the Association for Psychological Type Int'l.

    I couldn't understand why you would mislead such vulnerable people until I realised you were pushing your own barrow.

    And although no astronomer believes in astrology, there is money to be made in astrology.

    And in the same way, although no psychometrician believes in MBTI, it is plain there is money to be made from MBTI.

    Integrity is one of the first virtues, while for a confidence man, a sucker is born every minute.
    The MBTI isn't what matters--it's just a tool created to help people gain access to a tool that helps people make constructive use of differences. I use the theory to help people resolve conflicts, heal wounds, and help all children succeed.

    But what I wrote about Myers and Briggs is true.

    Whether psychometricians believe in the instrument has nothing to do with whether, in the hands of a capable facilitator, one can help people get along.
    edcoaching

  5. #35
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Correct so in what way does it matter if the order of things makes sense to you other than it mattering to you personally? ..
    ??????????????????????

    In order for there to be any coherent view of the external environment there must be a sound system. If the current system does not accurately depict external occurences, it must be re-worked,(but first you must truly make sure that the system contains inaccurate information about the world, that it is not one of those cases where we see a 60 year old Se man who seems to be using Ni a lot and there we conclude that Se is really an abstract function, rather than concrete external perception as our system led us to believe hitherto) yet there is no reason at all to abandon systematic thought in favor of positivistic observations.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In order for there to be any coherent view of the external environment there must be a sound system.

  7. #37
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In order for there to be any coherent view of the external environment there must be a sound system. If the current system does not accurately depict external occurences, it must be re-worked,(but first you must truly make sure that the system contains inaccurate information about the world, that it is not one of those cases where we see a 60 year old Se man who seems to be using Ni a lot and there we conclude that Se is really an abstract function, rather than concrete external perception as our system led us to believe hitherto) yet there is no reason at all to abandon systematic thought in favor of positivistic observations.
    So don't check the system to itself, check it to reality?

    It sounds like you agree with me but I'm not quite sure.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #38
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I couldn't understand why you would make such a misleading post until I discovered you have a vested interest - you are President of the Association for Psychological Type Int'l.

    I couldn't understand why you would mislead such vulnerable people until I realised you were pushing your own barrow.

    And although no astronomer believes in astrology, there is money to be made in astrology.

    And in the same way, although no psychometrician believes in MBTI, it is plain there is money to be made from MBTI.

    Integrity is one of the first virtues, while for a confidence man, a sucker is born every minute.
    Few engineers believe in computers...

    ...so what?

    Belief has nothing to do with it, being "qualified" is only a guideline, being "recognised" is only a public qualification and being "official" only means people are comfortable with it. These things are not related to truth.

    That being said it also means that MBTI cannot be said to be any more valid than any other system. All I know is it works fairly reliably and is of use. I need no other reason to continue with it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #39
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    This sounds complicated.... I'm not sure I know what you mean.

    If you mean what I think you mean, then I think you have a point. It seems like people are often starting with the pattern, filling it in with their own experiences, and using their own experiences a way of interpreting things back to the pattern. Which is the wrong way, most likely. You shouldn't necessarily filter your experiences or your perceptions to fit them into a pattern. I think, rather, you should keep your perceptions and experiences intact, and only use the pattern where it matches them to express them, and admit the places where the pattern and the experiences don't completely match.

    It can be annoying when people start throwing out all the rationalizations for why a person could be a particular type, and getting mad at you if you question it or say it's unlikely, everyone else wanting to just jump on board and agree with the idea. It happens a lot actually... people throw out an idea, and everyone else just builds it up and says how great it is, adds some of their own interpretation and extension to it. Then if someone else comes along and pokes holes in it, everyone gets angry and defensive, at least dismissive, and often rationalize that you don't have a mature understanding, overanalyze, or are closed-minded.

    Does that make sense?
    I was going to start out with "WHAT?" but I then realised that although your point is different to mine it's also very true.

    I was thinking more in terms of arguing about how the system's pattern is valid or not measuring it's success or faliure by whether it meets up with what people expect or not without recourse to finding out whether it works in real terms, ie by seeing if it does help people communicate and see how other kinds of thinking works.

    Your point, if I read it right, is more that people start with a few pointers and then assume that the rest of the pattern fits or persuade people by altering how they read things so that whatever they observe fits. You're quite correct that this is logically wrong.. well unless you include inductive logic.

    Personally I'd say that a certain amount of such pattern prediction is necessary as no person ever really matches up to any description perfectly and some margin of contradiction is only to be expected. However the amount of contradiction is a factor and if a person consistantly contradicts their type then there is reasonable grounds to doubt that they are that type.

    In combination with this I'd also personally say that it is necessary to try to predict the rest of the pattern as a hypothesis to allow us to compare what we expect with what occurs, there by highlighting any areas of divergance.

    So, yeah, that does make sense.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #40
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    It seems to fit the different approach of Ni versus Ne. A good INFJ friend of mine first tries to find the weak points in a theory. The correct application of words and definitions and the internal consistency of a system are his primary concern. Im first oriented to see the gestalt of a theory and how it manifests itself in different people. I dont think its surprising that I often share the same perception with INTPs, whereas discussions with Ni dominants are sometimes difficult, because their approach is so different.

    Ni is more linear, whereas Ne is holistic. Ni is concerned with perspective itself, Ne tries to find patterns.
    I'm not certain of the types engaged in such conversations where the system comes under fire for it's lack of sticking to expected parameters but your definitions seem sound to me.

    I recall a conversation between myself and an INTJ where he was arguing that a system was floored by measuring it's success or failure by internal structure alone where as I noted to him that it did work in practice and therefore had use even if it's internal structure was not ideal. I think it was the 3rd/3.5 ed of D&D level structure which started that argument.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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