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  1. #21
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I think everybody has some personal combination. But there is good chances that some combination is more typical for some type and that some functions are far more likely to appear as stronger in that type.

    All of my four letters are very strong but the combination of functions doesn't fit.

    But I have strong Ni and Te.

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Psychometrics is a branch of Psychology. It measures the psyche and in this case, personality types.

    Psychometrics is empirical - it can be tested - and any particular test can be falsified.

    MBTI has been tested and found to be false.

    And the creators of MBTI, Mrs Briggs and her daughter, did not know how to make a valid and reliable personality test. In fact they copied their test from the book, "Personality Types", by the New Age Guru, Carl Jung.

    If you wish to talk to a qualified psychometrician, you can ring the Psychology Department of your nearest University and ask to speak to a psychometrician.

    Why not?
    You know I was being facetious right?

    The proven theory was at one time that the moon was made of cheese.
    There was a proven theory of relativity, then proven to be unproven.
    A scientists team declared they had proved that cold nuclear fusion could be done, then another team proved them wrong.

    Against what background of proof am I to accept that those who choose who is acceptibly proven and who is not are actually qualified to make such decisions and who qualified them.

    You are perfectly entitled to accept this second hand authority as valid but that does not disqualify anyone else as valid unless you are to propose that the theories persued by your supported faction are in fact the only approach which works.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The bottom line is that the reason why you have an idea of an external occurence is because of an internal cognitive perception.
    So you are saying that if I think that all bald people are mutants and go killing them that I shouldn't rectify this?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No idea what you are talking about.
    That is most obvious old fellow.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Generally, it should be noted that no system can be positivistic. As this cancels out all thinking altogether. Internal framework is the system in itself, yet the external observations are the additional data we need to collect. Our internal framework is sound if it is logically consistent and founded upon sound premises which hinge on factual information. It is important to continue to observe the external world to make sure that we have the correct factual information to found our premises on.
    That bit bothers you doesn't it.

    So basically you believe that the universe would stop working if we could no longer understand it?

    So how come we could see light before we knew how fast it went?

    Does this not mean that entire systems and models (ie the universe) exist with or without our thought or understanding? Ergo our thought and understanding has no effect on how things are, only on our perception of them. Theory <> Reality. Reality > Theory.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #24
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    So you are saying that if I think that all bald people are mutants and go killing them that I shouldn't rectify this?

    That is most obvious old fellow.

    That bit bothers you doesn't it.

    So basically you believe that the universe would stop working if we could no longer understand it?

    So how come we could see light before we knew how fast it went?

    Does this not mean that entire systems and models (ie the universe) exist with or without our thought or understanding? Ergo our thought and understanding has no effect on how things are, only on our perception of them. Theory <> Reality. Reality > Theory.
    You're confused. Universe will work just fine if you close your eyes, but your observations of it require a process of cognition. A retard or an animal can look at the chalk board and not retain a thing about what it looks like.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #25
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You're confused. Universe will work just fine if you close your eyes, but your observations of it require a process of cognition. A retard or an animal can look at the chalk board and not retain a thing about what it looks like.
    Correct so in what way does it matter if the order of things makes sense to you other than it mattering to you personally?

    Ergo a system may appear to be incorrect according to your thinking and yet function regardless. In these cases you may find the answer with a better understanding of the system or you may just have to accept that system and try applying it in the real world.

    So far I have found in the last twelve years that the MBTI is not a flawlessly concurrent system of understanding but it's a damn good guide to the trends in people's thinking.

    If you accept that the world works without your thought then you must also recognise that whatever pattern we notice in it has also existed without our input and therefore is not subject to our own validations. If, however, we put a system in place, a mask, to better understand those patterns then any errors found are within our own conversion process.

    Hence how I did my nut when some scientists found a gap in their colourful map of the universe and declared that as proof of another dimension. How do such people manage to grasp high end science and yet miss the obvious. A gap in their pattern made by their system only proves that in that case their system produces a gap.

    Hence our theories orbit reality and never the other way around.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #26
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Psychometrics is a branch of Psychology. It measures the psyche and in this case, personality types.

    Psychometrics is empirical - it can be tested - and any particular test can be falsified.

    MBTI has been tested and found to be false.

    And the creators of MBTI, Mrs Briggs and her daughter, did not know how to make a valid and reliable personality test. In fact they copied their test from the book, "Personality Types", by the New Age Guru, Carl Jung.

    If you wish to talk to a qualified psychometrician, you can ring the Psychology Department of your nearest University and ask to speak to a psychometrician.

    Why not?
    MBTI has been tested and found to be a reliable, valid self-reporting instrument. It will not hold up to diagnostic psychometrics because it wasn't designed to--Isabel didn't think people liked to be told who they were and that an interactive process would be better. It's reliability/validity is actually excellent by psychometric standards but is discounted by people who think it should fit the Bell curve because they haven't read the manual.

    Isabel and Katherine knew exactly what they were doing. No, they weren't psychiatrists--but they were college-educated which was extremely rare for women born in 1870 and 1900. They were taught to think and used their smarts (and Mr. Briggs' knowledge as head of teh Bureau of Standards) to actually invent two statistical techniques that no one else used until supercomputers were invented; Isabel ran the correlations involved by hand.

    Further Form M was developed via Item Response Theory and subjected to all kinds of research. But the publishers aren't interested in diagnostic tools; they make people suspicious and that isn't what's needed when you're trying to use the tool to improve interactions.

    It's like saying Bill Gates couldn't have built Microsoft because he didn't finish college...
    edcoaching

  7. #27
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I think everybody has some personal combination. But there is good chances that some combination is more typical for some type and that some functions are far more likely to appear as stronger in that type.

    All of my four letters are very strong but the combination of functions doesn't fit.

    But I have strong Ni and Te.
    A bunch of type theorists are actually figuring out how to hold a forum right now on this issue. Some advocate for a set order of development. And they don't agree on the order. Others hold that beyond the first two functions, experience, education, environment might influence the order (my camp). I think you're right that there's a more typical combination--that'd match with my position
    edcoaching

  8. #28
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    I am curious:

    Is there another personality typing system you think is more valid or do you disagree with personality typing in general? If so what system(s) do you like?

    In other words is it just MBTI you disagree with or the whole idea of classifying people into types?
    The broader psychological community does not seem to respect any "type" theories, though you can find mention of "temperament", especially for children. However, this is not what we normally think of it as (basically, the old humour theory renamed and mapped onto a type system as basically, a larger "type" taxonomy. And because the medical "humor" concept was the original basis of it, and has long been disproven, people still think this is what our use of "the temperaments" is about!)
    Taylor-Johnson (T-JTA) seems to be an example of a "temperament" analysis that has more respect and use in psychology. It just scores the nine factors, and does not make "types" or name "temperament" categories out of them. Hence, it looks like amore professional, clinical instrument.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  9. #29
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I've seen many people taking the MBTI function orders and such as a pattern and then trying to rationalise the pattern against itself, looking for areas where the pattern does not match and so on. Now is it just me or is this a mistake? Surely the pattern is resulting from the study of people. The pattern itself is a result and not the primary source, ergo arguing over where it follows a trend and where it does not can only be done out of interest voiding any revelations stumbled upon during the investigation.

    I only highlight this as I've had many discussions where I get the feeling that people are basing their assumptions and advice more on an investigation and understanding of a pattern of results than on actual observation of the primary material, ie people.

    I'm not saying it's wrong necessarily, just challenging the approach.
    It seems to fit the different approach of Ni versus Ne. A good INFJ friend of mine first tries to find the weak points in a theory. The correct application of words and definitions and the internal consistency of a system are his primary concern. Im first oriented to see the gestalt of a theory and how it manifests itself in different people. I dont think its surprising that I often share the same perception with INTPs, whereas discussions with Ni dominants are sometimes difficult, because their approach is so different.

    Ni is more linear, whereas Ne is holistic. Ni is concerned with perspective itself, Ne tries to find patterns.

  10. #30
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    It seems to fit the different approach of Ni versus Ne. A good INFJ friend of mine first tries to find the weak points in a theory. The correct application of words and definitions and the internal consistency of a system are his primary concern. Im first oriented to see the gestalt of a theory and how it manifests itself in different people. I dont think its surprising that I often share the same perception with INTPs, whereas discussions with Ni dominants are sometimes difficult, because their approach is so different.

    Ni is more linear, whereas Ne is holistic. Ni is concerned with perspective itself, Ne tries to find patterns.
    Ni is often described as butterfly thought because it's so nonlinear. Actually we're more likely to take a bit of a theory, see how it would help people, and spin off into new permutations that seem most likely to change the world. Was your friend trained in critical thinking? Most of my INFJ colleagues and I are really good at glossing over flaws if we see value. If we don't see value we move on to something else...
    edcoaching

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