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  1. #91
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I don't mind you being mean and a little sting may bring clarity.

    I understand you disagree that you think it is possible it is not healthy.

    However I agree with you that a trance can be a self fulfilling prophecy. In fact I am strongly in favour of designing trances in advance to produce chosen results.

    But what can I say? For instance I can enter a trance in front of a beautiful tree and completely identify with the tree to such and extent that I can speak as the tree. As far as I am concerned I am the tree as long as I am in that particular trance.

    So there is no reason I can't fully indentify with any particular type when I am in a trance.

    I understand this is bring up cognitive dissonance within the rubric of MBTI.

    In fact this cognitive dissonance highlights the fact that MBTI reifies the personality, whereas by identifying with each and all personality types returns the personality to the person.

    So rather than treating each person as a thing in MBTI, we see that we are living persons, not things.

    I full recogise this is subversive of MBTI. And I think this subversion is incoherently recogised by most here.

    And this explains the negative response I get from members here - they at least unconsciously recognise that I am subversive - but even worse, that I am sincerely subversive.

    So we reach the interesting question of how this cognitive dissonance that I engender may be resolved.

    Well, you could choose one side or the other; or you could recognise we are simply asking the wrong question; or you could transcend the cognitive dissonance and enter a new understanding.

    And as they say, when the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do?

    And learning is not putting facts into your mind but changing your mind itself.

    But our mind resists change and we find cognitive dissonance painful so we prefer to shoot the messenger.

    Don't shoot, don't shoot - I am only the messenger.
    Shoot the messanger? Some **** took my bullets when I was really young!

    I prefer the knife anyhow

    Seriously though, I meant it as a discourse not a witch hunt, hence the forewarning apology.

    I disagree not in that you have trances, okay that does give me the heeby geebies, but more so that the claim to be able to alter type is, in my considered opinion, hogwash. The reason being is that you experience things through your cognitive wiring yes? (even if you don't like the MBTI's translation of it, you agree that such things exists yes?) Well then if so and you are an ENTP for example, then your ISTP will be an ENTPs take on an ISTP and not a person who has grown and developed as an ISTP. Ergo you aren't being an ISTP, just trying to think like one.

    Don't get me wrong, I admire the ideal. Seeing things from another perspective is something I rate highly as a desirable attribute in a mind. I'm just not sure that the particular methodology and designs being employed are a healthy way to investigate different types.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #92
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Victor,

    Actually I think it could all be explained in MBTI language.

    You are more in touch with - and better at using - your shadow [functions 5-8] and your 3rd and 4th functions than most people.

    Most Jungian inspired psychologist concider this to be a good thing.

  3. #93
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I disagree not in that you have trances, okay that does give me the heeby geebies, but more so that the claim to be able to alter type is, in my considered opinion, hogwash.

    I'm just not sure that the particular methodology and designs being employed are a healthy way to investigate different types.
    The heeby geebies are the precursor to a trance.

    It is natural to feel fear as we enter a trance because we are going to be vulnerable without our cognitive faculties.

    And I believe it is your natural fear that leads you to rationalise that trance is unhealthy.

    In fact trance is a normal part of life and most trances are entered into unconsciously. You enter the hypnogogic trance as you fall asleep every night and as you wake every morning. You enter the sexual trance when you make love. You enter a light trance when you watch TV. You even enter a light trance when you ride in an elevator.

    The trances you enter as a matter of course every day are too numerous to mention. But every time you go to the movies you enter the movie trance. When you give birth, you enter the birth trance. Runners enter the running trance. Why, even Colema enters the walking trance.

    When you go to Mass, you enter the religious trance. And when you attend a dinner party, you enter a group trance. Music induces the music trance. And when you drink, you enter the alcoholic trance. And of course there are the cigarette trance, the marijana trance, the heroin trance and the meth trance.

    Sharmans have been using naturally occurring narcotics to enter sharmanic trances for millennia.

    And of course there are the psychotic trances such as the schizophrenic trance.

    And last but not least, are the addictive trances which consist of double trances, one trance that is induced inside another trance - these are very difficult trances to terminate.

    And almost all these trances are culturally sanctioned trances - they are taken for granted - and they very rarely give the warning sign of fear - so you don't even notice them - they are normal.

    However we are now moving into the Noosphere, the global village, the neo-tribal village, which is all about trance.

    And we are unprepared.

    So we need to learn to understand trances - we need to learn how to design trances safely.

    The great artists of the Noosphere will be trance designers.

    And you may learn about trance and trance design on The Trance Institute

  4. #94
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I actually meant i disagree that you can change your type, especially so easily. The method is quite irrelevant.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #95
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    That's some very interesting information about trance, both in your post and in the link. I haven't read everything in the link, but I have it bookmarked.

    I trance very easy, for a large part of my life I was not comfortable with it. Earlier in my life I had many occurances of involuntary altered consciousness which made it scary for me. Now I am exploring this area again, seeing how it can be a positive aspect of my life.

    The following is something I had written a couple years back on altered states.

    I have experienced several types of what might be called altered states of consciousness. Some of them might be related to epilepsy. (I now believe I had epilepsy as a teen, but tested negative because of poor testing available at the time.) Some of them might be dissociation. Some might be called a trance state. Some are spiritual/metaphysical. Some or all of them might be related. It seems too much of a coincidence that I have experienced all of them. None of these were triggered by the use of drugs, alcohol, herbs or any mind altering substance.



    1. Partial brain shutdown: I am only partially aware of what is going on. For example, I could tell that a person next to me is making word sounds, but not what the person is saying. I am taking in things but not able to process at all. I can continue very simple repetitive movements but cannot talk or doing anything requiring any thought. Pretty scary. I don't get these anymore, but they were common in high school.



    2. Brain shutdown, mental vacation, spaced out: My mind just shuts down except for vital functions like breathing. (I remain standing or sitting or what ever position I was in.) I do nothing but stare blankly. Time passes and I have no memory of it passing. In my teen years, in my room I would often have instances where I realized I had been staring at the wall or a blank sheet for a half hour to an hour. They are less serious now, thought it tends to happened a couple times a month in the shower. It is easily broken by my husband yelling at me that I will be late for work though the bathroom door.



    3. Daydreaming: Sometimes I will become so lost in my own thoughts or a pleasant day dream that I tune out the outside world. I am not sure if this is properly called an altered state or not.



    4. Open, receptive, trance: I am not interacting at all with the outside world or physical world. During this time I am in tune with the either the inner world (my subconsious thought, inner self, etc.) or the spirit world. During this time I am open to visions, feelings, etc. I can currently do this at will now, though usually I will opt for #5 instead.



    5. Open, receptive, light trance, both worlds: This is like number 4 except that I am able to interact with both the physical and non-physical world at the same time with no more distraction than I would have with a normal conversation. I believe this is my current default state and I can enter into it at will. I think there may be a little bit of a continuum between 4 and 5.



    6. Disconnected: My body feels like it is not firmly connected to my mind/spirit/soul. I feel like I am watching my life rather than actively living it. Emotions and physical sensations may be blunted or numb. Interaction with the world is not impaired.



    7. Bliss: A sense of deep peace, calmness, serenity. This is usually triggered by repetitive movement (crochet or other craft) or music with an hypnotic or psychedelic quality. Having to concentrate on something else breaks the bliss. Normally I am not thinking anything at all, just experiencing feelings and sensations, though sometimes my mind can wander around during this time and maintain the state of bliss. I am thinking this is perhaps the state of Nirvana some seek to obtain though meditation. I also feel like perhaps it is similar to what some people may experience on drugs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The heeby geebies are the precursor to a trance.

    It is natural to feel fear as we enter a trance because we are going to be vulnerable without our cognitive faculties.

    And I believe it is your natural fear that leads you to rationalise that trance is unhealthy.

    In fact trance is a normal part of life and most trances are entered into unconsciously. You enter the hypnogogic trance as you fall asleep every night and as you wake every morning. You enter the sexual trance when you make love. You enter a light trance when you watch TV. You even enter a light trance when you ride in an elevator.

    The trances you enter as a matter of course every day are too numerous to mention. But every time you go to the movies you enter the movie trance. When you give birth, you enter the birth trance. Runners enter the running trance. Why, even Colema enters the walking trance.

    When you go to Mass, you enter the religious trance. And when you attend a dinner party, you enter a group trance. Music induces the music trance. And when you drink, you enter the alcoholic trance. And of course there are the cigarette trance, the marijana trance, the heroin trance and the meth trance.

    Sharmans have been using naturally occurring narcotics to enter sharmanic trances for millennia.

    And of course there are the psychotic trances such as the schizophrenic trance.

    And last but not least, are the addictive trances which consist of double trances, one trance that is induced inside another trance - these are very difficult trances to terminate.

    And almost all these trances are culturally sanctioned trances - they are taken for granted - and they very rarely give the warning sign of fear - so you don't even notice them - they are normal.

    However we are now moving into the Noosphere, the global village, the neo-tribal village, which is all about trance.

    And we are unprepared.

    So we need to learn to understand trances - we need to learn how to design trances safely.

    The great artists of the Noosphere will be trance designers.

    And you may learn about trance and trance design on The Trance Institute

  6. #96
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    That's some very interesting information about trance, both in your post and in the link. I haven't read everything in the link, but I have it bookmarked.

    I trance very easy, for a large part of my life I was not comfortable with it. Earlier in my life I had many occurances of involuntary altered consciousness which made it scary for me. Now I am exploring this area again, seeing how it can be a positive aspect of my life.

    The following is something I had written a couple years back on altered states.

    I have experienced several types of what might be called altered states of consciousness. Some of them might be related to epilepsy. (I now believe I had epilepsy as a teen, but tested negative because of poor testing available at the time.) Some of them might be dissociation. Some might be called a trance state. Some are spiritual/metaphysical. Some or all of them might be related. It seems too much of a coincidence that I have experienced all of them. None of these were triggered by the use of drugs, alcohol, herbs or any mind altering substance.



    1. Partial brain shutdown: I am only partially aware of what is going on. For example, I could tell that a person next to me is making word sounds, but not what the person is saying. I am taking in things but not able to process at all. I can continue very simple repetitive movements but cannot talk or doing anything requiring any thought. Pretty scary. I don't get these anymore, but they were common in high school.



    2. Brain shutdown, mental vacation, spaced out: My mind just shuts down except for vital functions like breathing. (I remain standing or sitting or what ever position I was in.) I do nothing but stare blankly. Time passes and I have no memory of it passing. In my teen years, in my room I would often have instances where I realized I had been staring at the wall or a blank sheet for a half hour to an hour. They are less serious now, thought it tends to happened a couple times a month in the shower. It is easily broken by my husband yelling at me that I will be late for work though the bathroom door.



    3. Daydreaming: Sometimes I will become so lost in my own thoughts or a pleasant day dream that I tune out the outside world. I am not sure if this is properly called an altered state or not.



    4. Open, receptive, trance: I am not interacting at all with the outside world or physical world. During this time I am in tune with the either the inner world (my subconsious thought, inner self, etc.) or the spirit world. During this time I am open to visions, feelings, etc. I can currently do this at will now, though usually I will opt for #5 instead.



    5. Open, receptive, light trance, both worlds: This is like number 4 except that I am able to interact with both the physical and non-physical world at the same time with no more distraction than I would have with a normal conversation. I believe this is my current default state and I can enter into it at will. I think there may be a little bit of a continuum between 4 and 5.



    6. Disconnected: My body feels like it is not firmly connected to my mind/spirit/soul. I feel like I am watching my life rather than actively living it. Emotions and physical sensations may be blunted or numb. Interaction with the world is not impaired.



    7. Bliss: A sense of deep peace, calmness, serenity. This is usually triggered by repetitive movement (crochet or other craft) or music with an hypnotic or psychedelic quality. Having to concentrate on something else breaks the bliss. Normally I am not thinking anything at all, just experiencing feelings and sensations, though sometimes my mind can wander around during this time and maintain the state of bliss. I am thinking this is perhaps the state of Nirvana some seek to obtain though meditation. I also feel like perhaps it is similar to what some people may experience on drugs.
    Now I feel nervous writing to you. I put off replying trying to compose the best reply in my mind.

    But it never works - everything I thought of seemed wrong or inadequate.

    I guess I am delighted and a bit overwhelmed to find someone else who has the gift of trance.

    I am nervous about saying the wrong thing to you and giving you the wrong impression - but what is the right impression?

    Reading your diary it was as though I was right beside you. You describe your involuntary trances very well - very clearly and sensibly.

    You remind me of my own involuntary trances.

    Trance has been very important for me. It has given me a depth and delight in life that I might otherwise not have had.

    In fact my involuntary trances sent me looking for an explanation. And I found an explanation with Dennis Wier who wrote a trance theory - and interestingly, a falsifiable theory.

    Dennis Wier is himself experienced in trance and has also been trained in logic. And so he put them both together and came up with Trance Theory.

    And interestingly Trance Theory is not part of the New Age Movement but comes straight out of the Enlightenment.

    I have had the experience of two, perhaps three men, who I felt spoke directly to me. The first was Ainslie Mears who wrote, "Relief Without Drugs"; and the second was Dennis Wier who wrote, "Trance Theory"; and perhaps the third was Ronald Laing who wrote, "The Divided Self".

    Each one of them spoke directly to the inner life - to my inner life. So I never forget them.

    But things are changing rapidly as we move into the electronic media and even literacy becomes the content of the new media - look, I am writing, and you are reading, text on the internet.

    When literacy was our media environment, trance was largely unconscious, even repressed. But in the new electronic media, trance is becoming visible - the unconscious is becoming conscious.

    So we are now in a position to design our own trances for our own purposes - and guess what - we have Wier's Trance Theory to guide us.

    And whereas your gift had to be hidden under the regime of literacy, in the noosphere, in the electronic media, your gift is essential to the happiness and well being of us all.

    I am delighted to meet you.

    Victor.

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