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  1. #31
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Considering the generally flawed logic of Fe doms, how should they measure the capability of an arguer?
    wails from the crypt.

  2. #32
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    Considering the generally flawed logic of Fe doms, how should they measure the capability of an arguer?
    If they do not understand the principles of reasoning, they are not in the position to assess the soundness of reasoning of other people.

    Just like if you do not understand mathematics, you do not have a reliable way of knowing whether the mathematician has solved the problem correctly.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #33
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Would you ignore every Fe without the accountability to realize their shortcomings and refrain from making statements on topics of reason and logic?

    I find it easier to deal with uses of the term argument as a mention of persuasion when coming from an Fe.
    wails from the crypt.

  4. #34
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    Would you ignore every Fe without the accountability to realize their shortcomings and refrain from making statements on topics of reason and logic?

    I find it easier to deal with uses of the term argument as a mention of persuasion when coming from an Fe.

    Usually they mean a 'verbal fight' by an argument.

    This is the most commonly used fashion of the term.

    argument - Definitions from Dictionary.com

    It is number 1 here.

    The scholarly definition are in slots 3 and 4.

    Clearly, very different notions are intended in number 1 and in the latter 2.

    Usually it is very easy to see which one the speaker has in mind. Pretty clear that scholars and our ordinary Fes refer to different things when they use the term 'argument'.

    From the scholarly perspective of the 'argument', the aforementioned Fe claims do not qualify as arguments because they do not contain chains of logically valid reasoning leading to a proposition likely to be the truth. (In formal logic, such propositions are considered non-arguments) I ignore them every chance I get. As far as I am concerned, they are saying FDFDIOHDSOIHFSDHIOFDSIOHDSFIOHFDSHIOFDSIHODSFIOHFD SFDS
    FDS
    FSDHIPSFDOIHFDSIOFDSIOHFHIFDSHIOFDSOHIFDSHOIFDSOHI FDSOIHOHFIDSFDSFSDFDSFDSFDS:steam:

    DONT YOU KNOW..DHASHIODHIOS YOU OUGHT TO FEELL...!!!!

    .[

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.[FDSPDSFJPOFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJSDFPOJFDSPOJSFDP OJFDSPOJSFDPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFSDOPJ DSFFDS
    FDSPDSFJPOFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJSDFPOJFDSPOJSFDP OJFDSPOJSFDPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFSDOPJ DSFFDS
    FDSPDSFJPOFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJSDFPOJFDSPOJSFDP OJFDSPOJSFDPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFSDOPJ DSFFDS
    FDSPDSFJPOFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJSDFPOJFDSPOJSFDP OJFDSPOJSFDPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFDSPOJFSDOPJ DSFFDS
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #35
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    You must be a very disciplined man to ignore that.
    wails from the crypt.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes. Logic is traditionally referred to as the science of arguments. No distinction between the two. (Logic is the essence of reasoning as it outlines the proper laws of thought)
    hello, Mr. Te prefferer.

    So what if logic is "traditionally" reffered to as the science of arguements?

    In *debates* people tend to use Te, and more rarely (and with less 'telling points') Ti.

    In conversation, and in real life arguements, every single function plays a part.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    You must be a very disciplined man to ignore that.
    you and BW are so similar, you should date!

  8. #38
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    Would you ignore every Fe without the accountability to realize their shortcomings and refrain from making statements on topics of reason and logic?

    I find it easier to deal with uses of the term argument as a mention of persuasion when coming from an Fe.
    The subjective world of perception and experience is real and has important ramifications for all people even if it is not rooted in measurement, precise definitions, logic, and clear-clut conclusions. Take the issue of pain. We can measure some physiological responses and estimate its severity based on an individual's response to a ten point scale, but the experience of pain is varied and subjective. Each person has a different tolerance level and way of processing and associating the experience of pain. Can hard logic resolve the problem of the experience of pain? What approach is most effective?

    Respecting the various cognitive functions is related to the ability to understand what each offers as a tool, what type of problem each function is most adept at resolving and then honing the skill to use that tool at the appropriate time. We run into the problems and frustration when using a cognitive function that is not appropriate for resolving a particular issue. It is about using the right tool for the right job.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #39
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Because this thread is cool and goes deeper into the theory than usual.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #40
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i think the post is excellent, proteanmix, and thanks BlackCat for necro'ing the thread (and such a cute hippo picture!)

    sweet diagrams too. for those curious, here's a hypercube (4-d) in action:



    anyway, dimensionality makes a lot of sense - the more functions we use in complex ways, the more dimensional each function becomes. when an ENFP can use both NeFi and NeTi, we become infinitely more complex, same with NeFi and SeFi. each function lends another point of perspective to the others.

    personally, having grown up with Thinkers, i've gotten used to using Te and Fi together a lot, and i really value that synthesis: it means i can logically present something even though my own reasoning is alogical in nature (yes alogical, not against logic, just without it). i don't think it's contradictory, because T and F look at the same things, just in different ways. being able to communicate using the other side's language (and being able to understand the other side's point in your side's language) is invaluable for communication and harmony. (actually, Annwn's last post seems to be an excellent expression of this )

    i think the dimensionality idea can be applied to quality vs. quantitiy of a function, as well. has anyone ever watched Sailor Moon? Serena/Usagi/Sailor Moon herself is a very scattered and emotionally-immature ENFP who, in my opinion, has very heavily-used Ne and Fi, and her development through the series is becoming more decisive, reliable, and focused. her strength is consistently in bringing everyone together, but she has to learn to be more emotionally stable and logical. enter more balanced Fi and Te, and she becomes infinitely more complex as well as more resilient. obviously Ne is still her first preference, and, being a teenager (not to mention an anime character), she is still immature in many ways, but her preferences are beginning to be used in a way that is more self-fulfilling, more understandable to others, and more useful to practical applications. yay cartoons

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WueUMShBmq8&feature=related"]Sailor Moon uses Te for once (skip to :45)[/YOUTUBE]

    and isn't that the way so much human development works? psychiatry and psychology both have the fundamental principle that being very unbalanced is unhealthy. and there's even balance within balance... too balanced, and you have no personality, no strengths, but not balanced enough, and you become 1-dimensional, and probably very disturbed. either way, it becomes difficult to function in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow
    Being random and disconnected IS being an ENFP.
    If ENFPs are going to accurately sift through ideas and come to universally communicable conclusions then they need to use their thinking function, which is extroverted and therefore far more effective when in an external medium such as speech or forum posts.

    The spontaneity of ENFPs is not only one of their defining qualities, it is the most efficient way for them to come to solid and applicable conclusions, reliance on their introverted judging capabilities (Fi) will make for illogical and silently held ideas.

    As already stated, it is unreasonable to expect an ENFP with a decisive motivation to be able to find their own direction quickly and without aid. Since the primary judging capability of an ENFP is internalized feeling, the decision to involve themselves in an argument is as they can go before needing to externalize.

    Judging ENFPs according to their inclination for impulsiveness and heart felt side taking is incredibly unfair to them. If anything an ENFP who displays greater motivation to involve themselves aggressively in a discussion is displaying a healthy use of their Fi (realizing it is more of a motivational compass than a decisive function) and should be commended.
    what you've said about being spontaneous is very insightfully true. and actually, what seems "random" and "disconnected" to others doesn't seem like it to us at all - or at least, we instinctively see connectivity in chaos. nothing is unrelated, thus nothing is truly random.

    i didn't really get the impression that proteanmix was trying to down ENFP F-decision making though, and ENFPs can, when empowered and balanced, find direction quickly and without aid - it's simply not our preference to. but that's what dimensionality is really about, isn't it? being able to rely on any functions if and when i need or want to, and those other functions lending their wisdom/perspective to whatever function(s) i'm primarily using at any given time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solitary Walker
    1)How is being able to summarize indicative of sound use of Extroverted Intuition?

    It is not. An ability to summarize soundly is most akin to quality use of Thinking, as in order to summarize soundly one must see structure clear in the presented material and be able to focus on what is truly relevant. This, more than anything else, requires competent use of Thinking.
    well, yes and no. Ne is extremely relevant to summarizing, because it captures big-picture ideas and patterns. of course Thinking is very intimately connected, because it comes into play when it's time to make logical sense of it and accurately describe it. ENTPs do this automatically in prioritizing information with Ti, while ENFPs establish logical order when we communicate with Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn
    The subjective world of perception and experience is real and has important ramifications for all people even if it is not rooted in measurement, precise definitions, logic, and clear-clut conclusions. Take the issue of pain. We can measure some physiological responses and estimate its severity based on an individual's response to a ten point scale, but the experience of pain is varied and subjective. Each person has a different tolerance level and way of processing and associating the experience of pain. Can hard logic resolve the problem of the experience of pain? What approach is most effective?

    Respecting the various cognitive functions is related to the ability to understand what each offers as a tool, what type of problem each function is most adept at resolving and then honing the skill to use that tool at the appropriate time. We run into the problems and frustration when using a cognitive function that is not appropriate for resolving a particular issue. It is about using the right tool for the right job.
    hot damn, exactly what i wanted to say and beautifully expressed.

    from my experience with Ti dom, F is often discounted because it is not expressed using T terms, not because the basis for argument is in and of itself without merit. the same admittedly goes for Fi dom/aux discounting T because it is not expressed using terms that appeal to F. too often my INTP dad and i have the exact same objective in mind, but experience much conflict in our contradicting ways of achieving that objective; we both think the other is hindering our own efforts. when we finally argue our way through it all, we often discover that our objective is, in essence, the same.

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