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[MBTI General] Is it possible to convince Fs with Logic?

Qlip

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On a serious note, logical reasoning is only as good as the presuppositions upon which it is based.

Therefore, being logical ≠ being right.

I find it amusing that all formal systems (logic, maths, geometry) have zero guarantee of being applicable to the real world. We have just gotten use out of them because they just magically happen to apply in certain situations. Magically, inexplicably. There are a lot of theories as to why this is true, but they are yet to have been proven. Formal systems we use are all founded on axioms, i.e. assumptions, i.e. ultimately unprovable.
 

Cygnus

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FJs are convinced by Ti, FPs are convinced by Te. Simple as that.
 

Jaguar

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There are T's who can't be convinced with logic. Preference for T =/= ability. If you think it does, you may be desperate for others to see you in a particular light and/or just plain kidding yourself. Furthermore, there are many F's in this forum who are better at reason and logic than T's.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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The title says it all.
I've noticed Fs don't care about logic (the best thing there is) and I have this question to all Fs.

Is it possible to convince Fs with Logic?

Well I think so.

If you disagree, convince me.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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Isn't it a fallacy of logic to make a hasty generalization as you have in the OP? Can you be convinced that you have demonstrated this fallacy using the definitions of logic?

It's nearly the only thing that changes my mind, although plenty of subjective information will affect my behavior. I value reason so highly I've overturned my entire inner framework of reality a couple of times in life in favor of it. It also is the reason I am slow to conclude anything. I score rather high on logic/analytical tests, so for whatever else I lack in life, that skill is not one of them, even though I'm a "Feeler". I process subjective information differently - there is a way to deal with informed speculation that is different from logic, but still useful. The discrediting of individual thought and reason based on category is a long and tiresome activity.
 

RandomINTP

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[MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION]
It's irrelevant if they get their own rules or not. Rules are made to be broken. :D
 

Occam's Chainsaw

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You should never try to convince people with logic. Instead, use rhetoric, emphasize enthusiasm over clear thinking and rationality. Even the logicians of the world want to escape the cold, hard truths. Give them a way out of the nihilism and you'll be a cult hero.
 

Vilku

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logic? no. sense? yes.
 

chubber

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:thinking:

everybody can get to the same end goal, it is the way they get there, the functions tells us why/how.
 

INTP

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Yes, but ofc some are more one sided on the T/F area and might not listen to logic as easily, also in general F types when pissed off or cornered tend to reject logic easier than T types. But this doesent work only one way, some T types are one sided on the T/F as well and only listen to logic, or think that they only listen to logic and that F is there on the background doing more work than the poor T understands and just makes up some stupid rationale to convince himself of being logical or only follow logic that follows their unconscious F judgments.

But T vs F doesent mean that F types are all less thinkers than T types, its just that they automatically approach things more with F, but can be much better at using T than an average thinker. For example(and pulling numbers which are not percentages out of my ass) some F person might be like 85 T and 90 F, while average T might be 75 T and 30 F.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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There is one dynamic in which I resist logic: It is when much relevant information has to be discarded in order for the logical approach to work. It is convenient to use logic when all the data that goes into the problem can be defined, measured and known. Very few aspects of life can be reduced to a logical syllogism without dismissing a great deal of the true complexity of the situation, without relying on generalizations. Consequences in the world result from so many different sources, so while I can agree with a specific series of logical cause-and-effect, I can also notice that it doesn't address the entire system. Many of the ideologies of the 20th century had quite solid logical underpinnings and yet the application caused great misery, unforeseen consequences, and failure.

Logic is often used in this over-simplified manner and becomes much like aspects of modern medicine that looks at the fix of one isolated organ or symptom without looking at the entire system. That approach to 'logic' is what rules so much of our world. The corporation must make money for the stockholder and can create A-B to make that happen without examining the effects on the larger systems in the world. That immature, careless use of logic is tiresome because, yes, the isolated logic can be correct, but within the larger context can be wrong and have unforeseen effects.

Try to convince an ego invested T with logic and you can see the results demonstrated across so many forums online. It's extremely rare I've ever seen a T convince another T of anything online *using logic*. It can certainly happen, but the reality is that ego is a far greater obstacle to reason than the cognitive processing of an F.
 

Poki

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Feelings is a part of logic anyway. Its part of the logical equation just as everything else can be part of the logical equation. I am confused that feelings and logic are opposites. Feelings are a huge part of reading people and logically understanding things. Just because you don't understand the equation doesn't mean that the parts you don't understand are the problem and don't belong...aka...feelings.

If dad dies and person is emotional healthy then
person cries due to sadness
else if person has emotional what about me issues then
person gets angry at dad for dying
loop until person crashes - steam/yell/etc
cry


Just like logic gates AND/OR/XOR/NOR/NAND, those operate off of inputs, analog inputs must be converted to 1 and 0s, assuming you are not using 3 states. Input is data, input is not logic. Feelings are input. Yes you can feed logic with other logic, but at that point your feeding the outcome of logic, not the logic itself which is back to data
 

prplchknz

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logic does not exist for a f, they only communicate in emjoiis no true f's are on this forum just lesser t's or the internet
 

Poki

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Its fun to twist and play with logic because "sense" is based off of knowns, logic is based off of everything. It is actually very hard for me to not "generalize" logic, because my logic just grows AND grows AND grows. Becoming more and more complex due to data which spans into future and turns into possibility logic, because those that are connected to the real world know that everything is interconnected in one way or another cause and affect never really ends, it just all feeds each other in a complicated path and loops like roads. That's why I have to just generalize, step back and take reality into play for input, else it just feels like the N world of "what ifs"
 

Mane

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If you can't convince people of something with a logical argument it doesn't just mean they are feelers, it's way worst then that. It means they are people. Most people won't be convinced by something unless it affirms their previously held beliefs. To be told you are right is a carrot, to be told you are wrong is a stick, and it's human nature to maneuver and rationalize itself accordingly.

Which you should know, because you had an argument and instead of listening to the merit and counter arguments of the other side, you held to your previously existing belief that you must be right, concluded that not agreeing with you is not agreeing with logic, and went on to type and generalize them accordingly. Congratulations, you are most people.
 
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