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  1. #1
    your resident asshole
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    Default Why is Te associated with order/organization?

    I don't get it...

    Fe - decisions based on external (interpersonal) values
    Fi - decisions based on internal values
    Ti - decisions based on internal logic
    Te - decisions based on external logic

    An example of Te vs. Ti...

    Ti - A theoretical physicist uses a complex set of equations and logic to solve a problem.
    Te - An experimental physicist performs an experiment and draws conclusions based on data.

    So then why in the world is Te described as being extremely organized and planning everything? I suppose I can in some way see how Te could manifest that way, but it's a horrendous generalization. Generalizations are somewhat necessary in MBTI, but they're useless if done incorrectly.

  2. #2
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    F, decisions based on values.
    T, decisions based on principles.

    E/I, where you prefer to apply it.

    Fe and Te organise the external world. Each by their own priorities. As a preference.

    An ENTJ does not experiment by preference. They prefer to do it once, right. ENTP experiments but that's Ti. In fact a P experiments so no Fe or Te preference gets you to experimental.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    F, decisions based on values.
    T, decisions based on principles.

    E/I, where you prefer to apply it.
    Right

    Fe and Te organise the external world. Each by their own priorities. As a preference.
    Huh? Why are you throwing the word "organize" into the mix all of a sudden? T/F is the decision function. I don't see how "organization" fits into the mix. It seems like a very narrow way to define them.

  4. #4
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Huh? Why are you throwing the word "organize" into the mix all of a sudden? T/F is the decision function. I don't see how "organization" fits into the mix. It seems like a very narrow way to define them.
    The result of preferring to exercise tour decision making in the external environment ends up in organising. Similarly a P tends to be more organised internally where as a J will tend to have internals which suit their external goals without necessarily having internal consistency. Hence why an IP will often argue passionately with an EJ because they disagree either their internal layout at a fundamental level, even if usually only knowing this at an almost subconscious level.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #5
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    I don't get it...

    Fe - decisions based on external (interpersonal) values
    Fi - decisions based on internal values
    Ti - decisions based on internal logic
    Te - decisions based on external logic

    An example of Te vs. Ti...

    Ti - A theoretical physicist uses a complex set of equations and logic to solve a problem.
    Te - An experimental physicist performs an experiment and draws conclusions based on data.

    So then why in the world is Te described as being extremely organized and planning everything? I suppose I can in some way see how Te could manifest that way, but it's a horrendous generalization. Generalizations are somewhat necessary in MBTI, but they're useless if done incorrectly.
    The modern "cognitive functions" are, to a significant degree, a set of descriptions jerry-rigged to match up with the MBTI types who supposedly "use" them as one of their top two.

    That means having "Te" descriptions match up with TJs — and TJs are J's, and decades of data (MBTI and Big Five both) have established that there's a real, substantially genetic personality dimension involved, and that the folks who have what the MBTI calls a "J preference" have a tendency to favor planning and organization. (But note that "neatness" is more of an SJ thing, and there really aren't any official MBTI test items that ask about neatness and messiness.)

    But it's not like Jung had failed to notice that one of the more substantial two-kinds-of-people things that divided his types from one another was the difference between what he called the "rational" types and the "irrational" types. Jung said that irrational types "find fulfilment in ... the flux of events" and are "attuned to the absolutely contingent," while rational types seek to "coerce the untidiness and fortuitousness of life into a definite pattern." He said a rational type tends to view an irrational type as "a hodge-podge of accidentals," while an irrational type "ripostes with an equally contemptuous opinion of his opposite number: he sees him as something only half alive, whose sole aim is to fasten the fetters of reason on everything living and strangle it with judgments."

    As part of the (perhaps intentional) misinterpretation of Jung (discussed here) that led Myers to declare that the auxiliary would have the opposite attitude to the dom, Myers also said that introverted J's were "irrational" types (i.e., P-doms), but that complication is really beside the point for purposes of this discussion as long as you buy into the idea that, when Jung was looking at people he thought were rational types (i.e., J-doms), he was looking at the people who'd test "J" on the MBTI.

    In any case, if you look at Jung's portrait of Te-doms, it certainly reflects the drive toward "strangling life with judgments" and "coercing life into definite patterns" that Jung associated with his "rational types" (J-doms) generally. So that aspect of modern Te descriptions, besides fitting MBTI TJs reasonably well, is also consistent with Jung's original conception of Te.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Eluded_One's Avatar
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    TE primary/aux belongs to xxTJ's. J's are often associated with structure/organization, or in other words, these folks have a tendency to have a more systematic approach than perceivers. Which is why I believe TE/FE is more of a dichotomy than TE/TI.
    “If you worry about what might be, and wonder what might have been, you will ignore what is.” -anonymous

  7. #7
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluded_One View Post
    TE primary/aux belongs to xxTJ's. J's are often associated with structure/organization, or in other words, these folks have a tendency to have a more systematic approach than perceivers. Which is why I believe TE/FE is more of a dichotomy than TE/TI.
    It is. One is a change of function, the other a change of "attitude". Te and Ti are the same function with an added note of which realm the individual prefers to apply that function.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #8
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Both the T and F are about order and organization.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Right


    Huh? Why are you throwing the word "organize" into the mix all of a sudden? T/F is the decision function. I don't see how "organization" fits into the mix. It seems like a very narrow way to define them.
    Some people confuse "making a decision" with "having a decision made". "Lets make a decision" as opposed to "this is how things are". Its easy to see how these can get confused with each other just using "decision" function.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #10
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    TJs (especially STJs) are, in my experience, usually quite organized and structured. TJs are supposed to have Te, ergo, Te is associated with order/organization.

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