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  1. #1
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Default four fold structure flawed?

    So I spoke to an analyst with a phd and he said the four fold structure of mbti absolutely does not apply to everyone.

    What do you think?

    You know where I stand...I Stand in the multi-structure camp.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  2. #2
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    I don't think it's completely reliable, because no one is 100% one type. Nobody is entirely Introverted or Extroverted, and no one uses Sensing to the total exclusion of Intuition. I mean, how many times have we encountered someone who didn't fall neatly into one type description, or someone on this forum who couldn't figure out their type, because they seemed to be equally Introverted and Extroverted, or their Thinking and Feeling seemed to be almost equally matched? In my own case, I scored almost as highly in Sensing on the MBTI test as in Intuition, so by their standards, I'm almost an ISTJ.

    The traits are just preferences, that's all. People lean toward some preferences more than others, and some people's preferences are stronger than others'. There's bound to be some whose traits are more evenly balanced , which is why it's not a totally reliable system.
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  3. #3
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    I don't think it's completely reliable, because no one is 100% one type. Nobody is entirely Introverted or Extroverted, and no one uses Sensing to the total exclusion of Intuition. I mean, how many times have we encountered someone who didn't fall neatly into one type description, or someone on this forum who couldn't figure out their type, because they seemed to be equally Introverted and Extroverted, or their Thinking and Feeling seemed to be almost equally matched? In my own case, I scored almost as highly in Sensing on the MBTI test as in Intuition, so by their standards, I'm almost an ISTJ.

    The traits are just preferences, that's all. People lean toward some preferences more than others, and some people's preferences are stronger than others'. There's bound to be some whose traits are more evenly balanced , which is why it's not a totally reliable system.
    I can't help but wonder what it would be like to develop a preference frequency table and restructure the theory to incorporate a wave structure while simultaneously maintaining it's discreet quantum structure to reflect or mirror the dual nature of matter.

    Psychological or personality theories have always developed hand in hand with the frontiers of science.

    So I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks there is more to the puzzle.

    I know that the theory of cognitive functions was developed hand in hand with dream analysis and that Jung saw the functions personified or symbolized in dreams and he noticed that many of his patients had a quaternity. One of the reasons I believe that people have more than a four fold structure is because I personally have seen the mandala of my center in my own dreams and have been analyzed by a Jungian and we came to the conclusion that I have an 8 fold structure which is quite weird and the reason why I am perpetually learning something - guitar, drawing, math, reading, work, programming, basketball, boxing, metaphysics and pyshology....the list goes on...I consistently rotate and every 8 days return to the cycle. I'm working full time now so I don't go as much but I noticed working my hands to the bones paradoxically enhances my downtime during which I am either reading and learning something -I never stop...I just keep going.

    The Jungian and I discussed that it was because each area or interest was indicative or an exemplary indication of all 8 functions...or four functions in their dual state.

    But I'm not special...I think most people here on the boards are different than the four fold structure...I think people who are content doing two things a day like working and watching t.v. are four fold...but people who seek more and work even in the margins of their lives like Kafka and others are definitely exhibiting a different structure.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #4
    Senior Member KitchenFly's Avatar
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    Default four fold structure flawed?

    I think the MBTI structure dose apply to everyone.

    It is a difficult thing to explain but the four fold structure is a more of a flowing continuum than four just four layers. It is more like a shape that crosses sets via two paths both paths are not recognised as distinctive MBTI types but they add a dynamic element that could be described as being fractal like two sides two directions one continuum. As if it the form added something like a caliber scope property an elision element where the working parts seemed to be as separated and pronounced as being distanced.


    I think of it like a figure eight but I think it's operation is like an imposable object.

    ( E-SN-TJ ) , ( IN-TF-P ) , ( IN-EP-TJ-SN-TF ) Unified and separated.

    The unified maybe how an infant cognitively experiences the would up till the age of three before memories become relied upon and individual identity becomes or begins to be formed. I am I you are you we see the would independently.

    As if the two parts two sets of three components create a structure that fills a vacuum the vacuum being a space within a lens to see through to a screen being the theta of life as psychodrama.

    The fact that it has six parts is interesting the fact that it comes in two parts is interesting and the fact that the two parts constitute three parts is interesting.

    Part of the flow seems to be the EP as if they were two connecting ends.

    But exactly how the fractal is shaped maybe a mystery yet to be understood.

    I don't think it some thing that cannot be worked out I think it is something that most likely has a very simple structure, but will require having all the correct peaces of the puzzle on the table first in there correct context before successfully modelling the structure. And part of the model may have much to do with chemicals and mathematics.

    The word theta is meant to be theatre, but I like the definition of theta and as a phrenetic spelt word it is a good chose because the Self is not Hole or Complete it has some separation from Essence's hole expression.
    Last edited by KitchenFly; 04-01-2015 at 07:08 PM. Reason: I was going to correct the spelling error, theta theatre but I kinda like the definition of theta and in some un conches reasoning the words placement seems ok because the self is separate from being
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  5. #5
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    You will always be just one type and you will always have a certain specified order of cognitive functions. You will always have a certain Enneagram number that can integrate or disintegrate into another specific Enneagram number.


    Your past experiences and upbringing will explain your core desires, tendencies, and motivations. Your motivations are broadly classified and expressed through your Enneagram number.
    Your learned thought processes will be expressed through your Cognitive Functions, dictating how you deal with what you are given.

    One Enneagram 8 will always be different than another Enneagram 8 because their experiences put their motivations in different directions. One ESFJ may behave vastly different from another ESFJ because of differing backgrounds, different surroundings that mold the expressions of their Cognitive Functions into different direct, observable results. An ENTJ and an ENFP may behave similarly, almost identically, within the same room, but because of vastly different motivations and cognitive processes.




    These hypotheses of MBTI and Enneagram didn't specifically deal with the principles of modern psychology in the way we do, but they make the most sense when overlaid with them.


    Incomplete =/= flawed.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    From a behaviorist view, the functions definitively do not apply to all people equally and nor would they have to be in a rigid hierarchy as is seen with Beebe's Model and the like.

    From a psychodynamic view (the view that I believe Jung originally took with his psychological types), however, a rigid hierarchy becomes rather prominent, due to the fact that the functions are no longer presented as explanations to specific behaviors but as forms of cognition that people rely on to interpret and participate in the world. Due to psychodynamic theory being often associated with pseudoscience and a lack of empiricism, most people are eager to throw out this perspective and misconstrue the functions by placing them in the behaviorist realm, as that field of psychology is more easily testable through experimentation and standardized testing, such as Isabella Meyer's MBTI. However, due to the fact that Jung intended psychological types to be more in league with the psychodynamic approach, and thus more in league with other concepts like unconscious archetypes, the possibility of having uniform behaviors for each function in each person's psyche suddenly becomes very unlikely, from the simple fact that the psyche's unconscious and conscious fluctuations are entirely subjective and dependent on an incalculable amount of variables that would produce wildly different behaviors under even the simplest of circumstances. Thus, it is easy to see how, say, a type might find themselves typing as anywhere from ISTJ to INFP due to the sheer amount of ways 's perspective can manifest in that person's psyche and information processing.

    In the psychodynamic approach, as aforementioned, the functions do not produce uniform behaviors for every individual valuing the same type. However, what the information elements do is allow individuals to group and associate different behaviors, objects, and environments that they perceive into groups known as information aspects. In this, you'll see the formation of cognitive schema based on the eight information elements, with the various objects classifying themselves into the psyche under fields that the psyche have decided are appropriate. Here, you might find war, belligerence, and barbarism associated with in one mind, while at the same time finding willpower, drive, and determination as in another, along with yet another mind that might associate all six of those objects within the category of . All of this variability ultimately means that there will never really be a test that will perfectly determine everyone's actual psychological type, as everyone, even those within the same types, is vastly intricate and different, which, in turn, means that Jungian theory will probably never be empirical until we further understand how the brain (or, rather, different brains) works, and thus will probably remain a pseudoscience for a very long time, if not forever. What we can do, however, is try to better understand people's information hierarchy from their perspective by assessing things like temperament and attention-states through a sort of empathy that dissociates ourselves from our own individual perspectives and information hierarchies. Ultimately however, all attempts at understanding are entirely subjective and lacking empiricism at this time.
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  7. #7
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    I do know..the Jungian of forty years and the one who runs the the center here told me that the four fold structure is antiquated and not something modern Jungian analysts strictly adhere to anymore but the responses above are duly noted and appreciated.

    It is not for me to argue too much into this for a) I do not like to argue outside of my realm of paid job and b)I am more of on a quest for the different opinions...


    But I still stand in the corner with my Jungian because of his vast experience and knowledge in the matter....it is always good to fish for other outlooks....

    For me it is a matter of empirical evidence, not necessary behavioral and four fold structure with two additional variables does not account for all the permutations of people...there would need to be at least 8 with varying degrees of prominence...perhaps four slots with 8 fractalized containers that blended in to each other like waves....
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  8. #8
    Senior Member KitchenFly's Avatar
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    Default four fold structure flawed?

    The four fold structure is interesting Garrot if I understand what you are talking about is it: (I-E) , (S-N) , (T-F) , (P-J).

    If I look at Nature one think that stands out to me is DNA & RNA in short the engines for making the building blocks of life , reproduction of cels one at a time.

    In short DNA code letters are A G C and T

    RNA code letters are A G C and U for ribose.

    The difference is between the two codes is T in DNA is replaced with U in RNA so T and U kinda remind me of (P-J) and A G C remind me of (I-E) , (S-N) , (T-F).

    It's interesting two think about these things at different levels in different ways. Everything vibrates and has its own rate of vibrating so like a finger print A May vibrate slitty differently than U and A & U & C may give of vibrations that when grouped sound an key note different to the key note of let's say G C U..

    I don't really know how these things work. I Am just utilising my imagination and I like to model posable ideas. But it seems to me there are three or some would say four but I am interested in three into three Patterns.

    G C U - A
    C U A - G
    A G C - U

    Some will say well it works in pairs and chemically. But maybe maybe at an e-motion level it works differently.

    We as humans have two types of DNA and RNA making cels one lot are the bacterial cels and the other lot are body cels.

    So it gets interesting the play of numbers and the ideas and concepts that can be thought of from such lateral thinking. Number patters of four parts and five parts are interesting.

    What is ? ...is experientially MBTI for you and me and every one else ,a personal and sheared experience of energy....A..States..of energy that could be thought of as different-frequencies cognitive experience emotion.

    Taking the Idea a step further and do something something like added another row below to give it a further symmetry and chose to honoured the the T in A G C and T of DNA it may look like this:

    G C U - A
    C U A - G
    A G C - U
    T T T - T

    Making G C A T , C U G T , U A C T , A G U T , G C U A , C U A G , A G C U , T T T T , eight patters. I am not suggesting that this is the right cognitive patterns Ti , Te , Si , Si , Ni , Ne , Fi , Fe , but possibilities are interesting.

    But what interest me within the Idea the most is:

    G C U A , C U A G , A G C U , A G U T , T T T T

    I like it because it is a combination of five and I am searching for something to link ( IN EP TJ SN TF ) from my Principle Of Unification component within my model that relates to the to missing MBTI types ESNTJ (1w9) and INTFP (5w6) that I configure:

    E-SN-TJ , IN-TF-P , two lots ..three parts that may combine as:

    IN EP TJ SN TF ,

    the EP maybe: T T T T

    INTFP - ESNTJ ambidextrous S&F and ambidextrous T&F. Kinda gets me thinking of T in DNA ( A G C T ) and U in RNA ( A G C U ).

    And then we could go on to speculate as to an idea like. Could A G C be SNT and the A G C with T could be assumed to possibly manifest the scope of S&N within the vision of the minds eye. And so A C G with U , and NTF manifesting The scope T&F within the vision of the minds eye.

    My interesting thought is about Intuitions role and Gurdjieff's Law Of Three.

    It kinda goes like this, to Sense Think Feel equally manifests Intuitions of a spiritual order.
    I have simplified it, but my point is to draw your attention to the possibility that this pattern may have something to with the Intuitive synergetic function within mind::

    (E-SN-TJ) - (IN-EP-TJ-SN-TF) - (IN-TF-P)

    So possibly, time and volume and light within minds vision, utilising thought imagination reflection in visioning and viewing via minds operations may link to my principle of unification. But it's an idea that would require so much work to test, the hole body's structure of cels electrical activity molecular chemistry and all the rest that I have also no understanding of and how it really works as a co synergetic structure.
    Last edited by KitchenFly; 04-02-2015 at 07:06 AM.

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