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  1. #1
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Default Ne/Ni Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    But we are more than willing to set up a framework and let others gather it for us.
    entp's like to study a variety of frameworks and build connections between them...

    NE vs. NI finally presents itself to me...NI is a single framework NE is multiple frameworks.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    entp's like to study a variety of frameworks and build connections between them...

    NE vs. NI finally presents itself to me...NI is a single framework NE is multiple frameworks.
    That is neither here nor there. I can take great delight in viewing things from different points of view, different frameworks, but, to me, the way things truly are is captured in a single perspective. Now, what is that, Ni or Ne?
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  3. #3
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is neither here nor there. I can take great delight in viewing things from different points of view, different frameworks, but, to me, the way things truly are is captured in a single perspective. Now, what is that, Ni or Ne?
    That sounds like NI to me or the tail end of NE...the reason I say tail end is because frequently, or based on what I think or have read, can't remember...the functions tend to be a matter of snake head and snake tail.

    If one is TE the thought train is lead by or the snake head is extroverted thinking but TI is still used in the sense that one has to make subtle distinctions between things in order to understand the logistics of empirical occurrences.

    Do you know your type for sure? To me that sounds like NI..

    Also I don't fully think typology describes us to the highest degree of resolution so I can understand the here no there matter...it applies to many including myself.

    With these continuums it could be tricky although Jung said that attitude was binary, either extrovert or introvert, I might disagree with him..

    I Also think mbti or typology would work better in a shell system that gives context to the matter like electron shells...each shell holds a different mbti type but for several universal contexts...

    The first shell would be immediate family, second, friends, third colleagues, fourth public, etc...with infinite degrees of resolution possible and many of the shells overlapping, like electron shells around an atom.

    This model I think would be cool.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #4
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is neither here nor there. I can take great delight in viewing things from different points of view, different frameworks, but, to me, the way things truly are is captured in a single perspective. Now, what is that, Ni or Ne?
    Hmmm...actually let me trace back a bit...from the above.

    You see different frameworks...and you take away from them to build your own internal framework.

    That to me could be NE + TI at work to be honest. TI and NE work in that way together I believe...but it could also be NI...

    we probably need more information.

    So do you find it easy for instance, to read a broad range of books or do you tend to stick to one subject?

    Edit: Here's a third thing we could say or ask too...

    Does your perspective continuously change in a smoothed out way as you take in information or is it prorated. I think J's tend to prorate things...they are open, take it in, then shut down and assimilate, where as P's are continuously open.

    This is how I know I am more J than P I believe. J's are more saturnine...P's are more fluid when it comes to processing I guess...

    This makes sense the INTP arch type is the assassin - at least in some memes I've seen...lol.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    "Insensitive" was probably poor word choice. Maybe I should have said "unsympathetic".

    Which I'm not, really. I just suck at showing sympathy, and Feeling types are often hurt by my apparent lack of caring.
    Sounds more like an issue of not being dualized which would be true an issue, regardless of what feeler you'd run into, then. Not being receptive to dualization is the biggest issue as to why duals don't work in the first place, though again, that is true for most ITRs. Personally, I cannot envision myself to not be with an Fi type; I adore Fi way too much and need it in my life. Another thing I've come to learn and appreciate now being with a feeler is how much I miss out because I do not focus on the interpersonal sphere the same way they do. Then there's the entire aspect of how much you grow as a person thanks to duality.

    Tbh, people often say duality is over-reated on the internet but I'd say it's underrated. Duality is fucking amazing and I wouldn't be even half the person I am now without it. But yeah, I second what @Alea_iacta_est wrote. Sounds tbh like they are alpha SFs to me, assuming of course, that you are an ILI here. Gamma NTs tend to see alpha SFs as too frivolous and emotionally expressive (SEEs are expressive but... it's intense and less about the outwards pouring of emotions that comes with Fe valuing types), and if they complain you aren't expressive enough, it sounds even more like they are Fe types tbh. I've never gotten the complaint to be more expressive from Fi egos, but I've gotten it from Fe egos.

    @GarrotTheThief what @Nicodemus wrote is so hilariously Ni, though, I don't even understand how you are debating whether it is Ne or Ni. Which is why I wrote to you before that you are operating on faulty logic in how you see Ne vs Ni, of course Ni can consider different frameworks and perspectives by taking in a breadth of information but that's the thing; Ni liberates itself from the object that is discerned. Saying it's "neither here nor there" is what Ni types do, it's liberated from the object, suggesting it could indeed be anything based on how we choose to see or interpret it. Ne doesn't do this being an extroverted function and thus is also invariably captured by and forced to see the object in and of itself. It doesn't question the nature of what something is but just like all the extroverted functions do, take it for granted. Ne is much more concerned about understanding how one object connects to another object, whereas Ni can of course take in a wide variety of what you here call "frameworks" but ultimately choose to detach itself from all of it and wants to see the underlying mechanism behind them. Ne looks for what is on the outside, Ni on the inside.

    Also, another tell-tale sign that Nicodemus is an Ni type should be fairly evident by looking at his avatar; that image alone is such an Ni-Se image, especially that of the gamma quadra. INTJ is pretty obvious but that's me.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #6
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Sounds more like an issue of not being dualized which would be true an issue, regardless of what feeler you'd run into, then. Not being receptive to dualization is the biggest issue as to why duals don't work in the first place, though again, that is true for most ITRs. Personally, I cannot envision myself to not be with an Fi type; I adore Fi way too much and need it in my life. Another thing I've come to learn and appreciate now being with a feeler is how much I miss out because I do not focus on the interpersonal sphere the same way they do. Then there's the entire aspect of how much you grow as a person thanks to duality.

    Tbh, people often say duality is over-reated on the internet but I'd say it's underrated. Duality is fucking amazing and I wouldn't be even half the person I am now without it. But yeah, I second what @Alea_iacta_est wrote. Sounds tbh like they are alpha SFs to me, assuming of course, that you are an ILI here. Gamma NTs tend to see alpha SFs as too frivolous and emotionally expressive (SEEs are expressive but... it's intense and less about the outwards pouring of emotions that comes with Fe valuing types), and if they complain you aren't expressive enough, it sounds even more like they are Fe types tbh. I've never gotten the complaint to be more expressive from Fi egos, but I've gotten it from Fe egos.

    @GarrotTheThief what @Nicodemus wrote is so hilariously Ni, though, I don't even understand how you are debating whether it is Ne or Ni. Which is why I wrote to you before that you are operating on faulty logic in how you see Ne vs Ni, of course Ni can consider different frameworks and perspectives by taking in a breadth of information but that's the thing; Ni liberates itself from the object that is discerned. Saying it's "neither here nor there" is what Ni types do, it's liberated from the object, suggesting it could indeed be anything based on how we choose to see or interpret it. Ne doesn't do this being an extroverted function and thus is also invariably captured by and forced to see the object in and of itself. It doesn't question the nature of what something is but just like all the extroverted functions do, take it for granted. Ne is much more concerned about understanding how one object connects to another object, whereas Ni can of course take in a wide variety of what you here call "frameworks" but ultimately choose to detach itself from all of it and wants to see the underlying mechanism behind them. Ne looks for what is on the outside, Ni on the inside.

    Also, another tell-tale sign that Nicodemus is an Ni type should be fairly evident by looking at his avatar; that image alone is such an Ni-Se image, especially that of the gamma quadra. INTJ is pretty obvious but that's me.
    The only logical fallacy is in assuming that written words on a message board equate to some monolithic or homogenous thought process. Two people can write the same exact thing and have two entirely different thought processes.

    It is possible a person write exactly like an ENTJ and be an ISFJ. This is because mbti and typology is about processing information but writing is largely conditioned by your environment - your time, career, education, special interests, etc.

    Furthermore, it is unknown to what degree personality is affected by nurture. So writing, based on empirical evidence, as we cannot predict thought processes based on writing, no scientific experiment has done that to date unless you can find one, actually it would require a few replicated instances of the experiment, at least a few thousand depending on the sample size...

    This is why I was telling you that it is fruitless to contest your arguments because you put too much faith into that which you think you already know but you do not, unless of course you can do what scientists cannot.


    All that aside, I do respect your panache for typing and appreciate your input.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Do you know your type for sure? To me that sounds like NI..
    I posed the question not to have it answered, but for you to consider, because I found your characterization of Ni and Ne... peculiar.

    But, for your information, I am as confident in my self-assessment as I think is sensibly feasible in the muddy waters of typology.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    The only logical fallacy is in assuming that written words on a message board equate to some monolithic or homogenous thought process. Two people can write the same exact thing and have two entirely different thought processes.

    It is possible a person write exactly like an ENTJ and be an ISFJ.
    I extremely disagree with this. You can most definitely read people's cognition based on their choice of words, because it belies what kind of worldview they ultimately operate with.

    This is because mbti and typology is about processing information but writing is largely conditioned by your environment - your time, career, education, special interests, etc.
    Which is why you don't get hung up on the actual words that are being used, but seeing the pattern from which they were spawned.

    Furthermore, it is unknown to what degree personality is affected by nurture. So writing, based on empirical evidence, as we cannot predict thought processes based on writing, no scientific experiment has done that to date unless you can find one, actually it would require a few replicated instances of the experiment, at least a few thousand depending on the sample size...
    If people do not genuinely filter their thinking process in the words that they choose in expressing how they see the world, then it will be reflective of their cognitive processes and thus also reveal what bias their mind carries.

    This is why I was telling you that it is fruitless to contest your arguments because you put too much faith into that which you think you already know but you do not, unless of course you can do what scientists cannot.
    Or perhaps it's because you do not actually see the connections behind what goes in people's chosen words? I mean, frankly, I'm pretty sure that I could come up with one of those neat algorithms that they use in order to analyze people's writing styles and eventually pin something down that somehow reflects people's cognition accurately. Just that one needs to logically outline and capture that process in some way and do that for all the types and the functions in that type. Process I can't say I am as inclined to pursue though as of this moment, seeing the time and effort it would take do it, though I've considered it as the only way to fully quantitatively test whether cognition is real or not.
    All that aside, I do respect your panache for typing and appreciate your input.
    Heh. If you go read some of Nicodemus' posts elsewhere as well, you will see how his worldview is so reflected by Ni, though.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #9
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    It is possible a person write exactly like an ENTJ and be an ISFJ. This is because mbti and typology is about processing information but writing is largely conditioned by your environment - your time, career, education, special interests, etc.

    Furthermore, it is unknown to what degree personality is affected by nurture. So writing, based on empirical evidence, as we cannot predict thought processes based on writing, no scientific experiment has done that to date unless you can find one, actually it would require a few replicated instances of the experiment, at least a few thousand depending on the sample size...
    I actually don't agree with that. Written and verbal language is the best indicator available to ascertain what functions someone is using. ISFJs don't talk like INTJs for example. Never have. Never will. Certain functions, like Ne tend to jump off the page for me when I'm reading someone's writing.

    What does this have to do with relationship pairing anyway

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  10. #10
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I actually don't agree with that. Written and verbal language is the best indicator available to ascertain what functions someone is using. ISFJs don't talk like INTJs for example. Never have. Never will. Certain functions, like Ne tend to jump off the page for me when I'm reading someone's writing.

    What does this have to do with relationship pairing anyway
    if that were true then I would be an intj . I am entirely introverted, yet by typing I am told by a professional that I am entj and sometimes on forums that I am infj and entp. So I am not denying the possibility at all...it's just that thus far I have been typed as randomly as someone guessing zodiac signs and my writing style is always the same.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

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