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  1. #11
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    We can always agree to disagree. I still don't think you have made a valid point regarding framework. As for quoting Jung, have you found the quote where intuition in comparison to introverted sensing is limited in reaching the unconscious? It's in his book Modern man in search of his soul.

    Either way, that is not the only site that uses the framework example. I think your missing the point here and splitting hairs...

    But as I said...we can happily agree to disagree so no big deal.
    Yet you didn't bother to contest it, either, by offering why you think there is merit to the view and perspective. And no, I have not read that one, I would be interested if you can provide a quote, though it is not the first time Jung has contradicted himself.

    And what other sites uses the word "framework"?

    Also, I'm pretty sure I understand you just fine, but the way you frame things does irk me out because I find it to be inaccurate. I also think it's a kind of lame of you to not meet anything I write and then cop out by trying to agree to disagree without having offered anything substantial as a counter-claim but whatever.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  2. #12
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Yet you didn't bother to contest it, either, by offering why you think there is merit to the view and perspective. And no, I have not read that one, I would be interested if you can provide a quote, though it is not the first time Jung has contradicted himself.

    And what other sites uses the word "framework"?

    Also, I'm pretty sure I understand you just fine, but the way you frame things does irk me out because I find it to be inaccurate. I also think it's a kind of lame of you to not meet anything I write and then cop out by trying to agree to disagree without having offered anything substantial as a counter-claim but whatever.
    Well I'm sorry for you if irk you but there is just too much to contest...too many random tangents in your post, which are relevant to a degree, albeit random for any useful dialogue on a forum and will just lead to endless random tangents.

    For example, where did I say anything about NI not being part of the collective unconscious?
    I'm basically saying that NE is good at coming up with a lot of random solutions and NI is useful in narrowing down on one based on constraints. That's why I think you're splitting hairs. I'm not contesting NI gives access to the unconscious...it does, but in everyone. So having NI dom doesn't mean that you have "more" access to it than someone who has it as their 8th function in the stack.

    What is accurate and what is inaccurate when it comes to typology is not something your nor I can speak for beyond our opinions here unless of course you have a phd in typology, which many people do...that is why I referenced the site, it is made and supported by people who have degrees in typology.

    As for us here...we are not the arbiters of accuracy when it comes to typology.

    So again, I'm sorry for you that you feel irked but that is on you...I don't feel irked by you at all...this is a democratic discussion and I did ask for opinions, but if you think your opinion is the be all and end all of accuracy you are as mistaken as you are conflated in that you think you can tell what someone thinks by how they write.

    The reason I say that to you is because your writing style is written in a weird and obtuse way by where you state claims as if they are facts that everyone accepts, but they are not.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #13
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post

    Yeah, so you found a shit description on a shit online site that is making weird and vague allusions to an MBTI theorist without actually explaining what the MBTI theorist is trying to suggest and waters it down to the point it becomes extremely removed from the original source. Lenore Thomson does not allude to "frameworks" but she clearly uses the term "pattern" or alternatively, "perspective", because again, "framework" is a word that is highly misleading. I would therefore encourage you to stop using it; it doesn't capture the point. Similarly, if you are going to discuss "images" that intuition deals with, it is better to actually do so by describing what Jung meant with them i.e. the woman who described as having a snake in her stomach or the man who described vertigo as being shot by an arrow. Just imagining a mountain is not an image that Ni deals with; Ni imagery is primarily subjectively recited and generated as a reaction to external stimulus e.g. when I feel sad, I may describe it as having a hole in my chest. That is Ni imagery.
    So just to give you an example, TE likes to lead with examples, I want to show the arrogance in the above statement. You disagree with my opinion so you refer to a web site that someone has put a lot of work into, and someone who obviously knows much more about typology than has been demonstrated in some of your posts, so you call the site "shit."

    Again, it doesn't bother me, but you cannot blame me for agreeing to disagree with you when your maturity level is so, so very low.

    This is why I do not contest your arguments. It is a fruitless endeavor.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default Conceptual Framework of Ne

    Ne is like a randomized fractal, one that has interacted with the complex, random systems of the external world.



    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    9. The Extraverted Intuitive Type

    Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type….[p. 468]
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default Conceptual Framework of Ni

    The inner conceptual framework of Ni is much like a pure fractal emanating from a single core point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    9. The Introverted Intuitive Type

    The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and -- in the case of a productive artist-the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle. [p. 509]

    If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man 'gone wrong', a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for 'psychological' novels.

    Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world? The pure intuitive who represses judgment or possesses it only under the spell of perception never meets this question fundamentally, since his only problem is the How of perception. He, therefore, finds the moral problem unintelligible, even absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell upon the disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally orientated intuitive. He concerns himself with the meaning of his vision; he troubles less about its further æsthetic possibilities than about the possible moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and as a totality, is in some way inter-related with his vision, that [p. 510] it is something which cannot just be perceived but which also would fain become the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken -- it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness'.

    The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete 'sublimation' is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects. [p. 511]
    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought it was worth approaching this topic as iNtuitives, and not just as T's.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
    Member Dopa's Avatar
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    Just like Se/Si, Ni is merely a more systematic, organized, processed version of Ne. It's like meta-Ne. Ne is looking out at the world and seeing patterns, possibilities, connections, contrasts.
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  7. #17
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    He starts off describing Ne vs. Ni as observing vs. impressions. I'm currently watching it.



    [edit]

    Here's another.

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  8. #18
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The inner conceptual framework of Ni is much like a pure fractal emanating from a single core point.




    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought it was worth approaching this topic as iNtuitives, and not just as T's.
    Excellent. I would like to add that the fractals confirm the notion of many frameworks and connections between (NE) and one framework and connections within (NI)....

    since fractals themselves are frameworks...one fractal is seemingly random and disparate and bridges external objects, the other fractal is centered around a singular vortex (a single framework).

    Thank you.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
    Likes labyrinthine liked this post

  9. #19
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    Threads about the functions are always people going in circles arguing about their own definitions of the functions, never really agreeing on what a function is supposed to be. It doesn't help that the definitions are often incredibly vague and general.

  10. #20
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big sexy View Post
    Threads about the functions are always people going in circles arguing about their own definitions of the functions, never really agreeing on what a function is supposed to be. It doesn't help that the definitions are often incredibly vague and general.
    Theme song for this thread:

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