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  1. #21
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I know that the ease and catchiness of it is why the Keirseyian approach is so popular... I just think that's unfortunate.
    So your attitude is that the people who will never get the cog stuff are better off not having any knowledge of the whole shebang at all?
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  2. #22
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So your attitude is that the people who will never get the cog stuff are better off not having any knowledge of the whole shebang at all?
    ...It's possible. Because they take the simplified depiction and twist it and pervert it into all kinds of incorrect things, and it could potentially be harmful. I've already heard stories about people being given the MBTI while applying for jobs, and getting turned down because they were not the "ideal" type.

    Oddly, most businesses that do this seem to always think that ESTJs and ENTJs are the best type, no matter what the job is.
    This is an example of a terrible misunderstanding of the MBTI having negative results.

    A vastly over-simplified, and supposedly behavior predicting MBTI is as good as the Zodiac.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...It's possible. Because they take the simplified depiction and twist it and pervert it into all kinds of incorrect things, and it could potentially be harmful. I've already heard stories about people being given the MBTI while applying for jobs, and getting turned down because they were not the "ideal" type.

    Oddly, most businesses that do this seem to always think that ESTJs and ENTJs are the best type, no matter what the job is.
    This is an example of a terrible misunderstanding of the MBTI having negative results.

    A vastly over-simplified, and supposedly behavior predicting MBTI is as good as the Zodiac.
    But that's separate. I don't believe MBTI splits people the way Keirsey does. Keirsey's book is very adamant that everyone has strengths.

  4. #24
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    In the end MBTI is about 16 types, not 4.
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  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    But that's separate. I don't believe MBTI splits people the way Keirsey does. Keirsey's book is very adamant that everyone has strengths.
    That's true. But Keirsey's archetypical approach must first exist in order for people to have such simplistic biases. Keirsey tries to say that everyone has strengths, but never the less, he pidgeonholes people too much seems to be kind of imbalanced in his descriptions.

    Also, here's another problem with Kiersey's system:
    Actions are the product of our mental processes. Mental process comes first, it's at the root. Trying to figure out someone's type by their actions is really crappy, because the same action can be arrived at for many, many different reasons. The fact that someone merely does something doesn't tell you much about what's going on in their head.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #26
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Why are those specific type combinations the breakdowns? They aren't consistent in regard to which aspects are included (E vs. I, N vs. S, F vs. T, J vs. P). Why not NT/NF/ST/SF, or TP/TJ//SP/SJ? Is it based upon the dominant functions by type?
    Keirsey simply thought that division worked best... and I think he might have had the four humors (melancholy, sanguine, choleric, and phlegmatic) in mind when making the divisions. In reality, I don't think those divisions work better than any other divisions.

    I personally have come to prefer NJ, NP, SJ, and SP myself, although I sometimes use TP, TJ, FP and FJ as well. Once in a while, I even use IJ, EJ, EP, and IP. I'm not really picky, I think they all have their uses in describing personality.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also, here's another problem with Kiersey's system:
    Actions are the product of our mental processes. Mental process comes first, it's at the root. Trying to figure out someone's type by their actions is really crappy, because the same action can be arrived at for many, many different reasons. The fact that someone merely does something doesn't tell you much about what's going on in their head.
    Their actions are the only reason for anyone else to care what type they are though. I've never given a second thought to the idea that it only matters who you are somewhere deep in your psyche. "It's not who we are underneath. It's what we do that defines us." --Katie Holmes

  8. #28
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Keirsey simply thought that division worked best... and I think he might have had the four humors (melancholy, sanguine, choleric, and phlegmatic) in mind when making the divisions. In reality, I don't think those divisions work better than any other divisions.

    I personally have come to prefer NJ, NP, SJ, and SP myself, although I sometimes use TP, TJ, FP and FJ as well. Once in a while, I even use IJ, EJ, EP, and IP. I'm not really picky, I think they all have their uses in describing personality.
    True. I have used different groupings too, depending on what I was trying to explain. For instance, I can use the Keirsey way and say my little brother and I are both Artisans (SP), and my older brother is a Rational (NT.) That only tells part of the story, but it tells the part that's relevant if I'm talking about how our actions are most often demonstrated. But I have also said that I am emotionally concrete (SF), while my younger brother is logically concrete (ST) and my older brother is logically abstract (NT.) This was used to point out more about the way we think than the way we act. So, different parts of the whole theory casserole can be used for different purposes.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I also don't have reason, by experience or theory, to believe that the differences between and NP and an NJ are smaller than the difference between an SP and an SJ.
    It's not about degrees of differences. It's about archetypes. The Guardian, Artisan, Rational, and Idealist archetypes are widely considered the most elegant and interesting archetypes that are based on mbti preferences. You could order the preferences into any other quadrant, but they probably won't have the same eloquence or relevance because I think kiersey's temperament sorter is the closest we've come to accurately modeling real worldviews.
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  10. #30
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Their actions are the only reason for anyone else to care what type they are though. I've never given a second thought to the idea that it only matters who you are somewhere deep in your psyche. "It's not who we are underneath. It's what we do that defines us." --Katie Holmes

    You quoted Katie Holmes?

    ..Anyway. I think you're wrong. There is practical relevance to going directly for psycho-analysis, in that it can tell you how to persaude someone. It tells you what makes sense to them, what they notice, what they consider important. You can try to learn the same things from action alone, but as I said, it get's very blurred. If you really try to make guess about how to communicate with someone based soley on their behavior, then you are fucked.


    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    It's not about degrees of differences. It's about archetypes. The Guardian, Artisan, Rational, and Idealist archetypes are widely considered the most elegant and interesting archetypes that are based on mbti preferences. You could order the preferences into any other quadrant, but they probably won't have the same eloquence or relevance because I think kiersey's temperament sorter is the closest we've come to accurately modeling real worldviews.
    Well, I'm not that concerned with aesthetic things like eloquence. As for "real worldviews" I don't know what you mean. They come closer to being like the old Hippocratic temperaments. I have no reason to assume that makes them closer to how people really think.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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