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Converging Personality Type Systems

Ene

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According to a website called business balls.com and other various online resources (which I won't bore you with right now), most modern personality systems are just refined variants of the age-old temperament theory. It has bothered me ever since I started studying MBTI as to how these various systems fit together.

I mean while I know there are technically infinite variations on human cognitive processes, behavior, etc., it seems to reason that in some very basic ways, they must converge. There must be basic patterns where a particular arrangement of cognitive functions provide an inclination toward certain behaviors, or where certain temperaments give way to particular sets of cognitive functions. (I say this because patterns and sequences make up the very framework of our existence, DNA, for example.)

I know this topic has been discussed on here before, but I want to hear your thoughts again, ESPECIALLY if you have been studying it for several years and if you have delved into various systems. Before learning of MBTI, I spent many hours researching the Four Temperaments theory. And now, my aunt has introduced me to the color theory, which is nothing but temperament under a new name. I have purposely left out the supine temperament, as I believe it can be accounted for within various secondary combos of extroverted and introverted tendencies.

This stuff woke me up at the crack of dawn and I couldn't get it out of my head, so I had to write it down. I have been pecking away on this iPad for the past two hours, trying to fit the puzzle pieces together. I can provide reasoning for my conclusions; just be aware that it will take me a while to bring them from the abstract into the concrete. I submit these temporary conclusions to you, in hopes that others can also provide reasoning and insight, help me correct the flaws in my theory. I'm not married to it, I just want to formulate a concise picture in my understanding.

Also, with all the things in the world to think about and spend my energy on, I honestly don't know why I keep digging at this. But it's as if there is something there, something intricate and once I grasp it, maybe I can explain it to others so they will grasp it, too, or maybe it will be one more file in my mental database of useless information, haha. I think personality studies should come with a warning label: addictive.

Hartman color theory compared with Temperament theory, MBTI and Enneagram Theory.


Red=Choleric=Enneagrams 8,1,
* Cholerics are take-charge individuals, at the the core. They don't usually mind confrontation.

Possible combos under Reds, aka, Cholerics
Red/White
ESTJ (Chlor/Mel)
ENTJ (Chlor/Mel)
Enneagram 8w9

Red/Blue
ENFJ (Chlor/Phleg)
ESFJ (Chlor/Phleg)
Enneagram 8w9

Red/Yellow
ESTP (Chlor/San)
ENTP (Chlor/San)
Enneagram 8w7

Yellow=Sanguine=Enneagrams 3,7

*Sanguines are playful and energetic for the most part.

Possible combos under Yellows, aka Sanguines
Yellow/Red
ESTP & ENTP, depending on their penchant toward Choleric or Sanguine tendencies.
Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 8w9, 8w7, 7w8, 7w6

Yellow/Blue
ESFP (San/Phleg)
ENFP (San/Phleg)
Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 3w4, 3w2, 7w6...maybe 7w8

Yellow/White
ENFJ (San/Mel)
ESFJ (San/Mel)
Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 3w4, 3w2, 7w6


Blue=Phlegmatic=Enneagrams 2,4,6,5

*Phlegmatics are predominantly easy-going introverts. They often dislike confrontation.

Possible combos under Blue, aka Phlegmatics

Blue/White
INTP (Phleg/Mel) Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 5w6,5w4

INFP (Phleg/Mel) Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 4w5, 2w3, 4w3,
Some INxPs may also be a 9. (Also, some INFPs may have a playful secondary or tertiary sanguine temperament.)

Blue/Yellow

ISFP (Phleg/San) Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 2,4,6 with all their various wings.

Blue/Red
ISFJ (Phleg/Chlor)
Some INFJs fall into this category.
Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 2w1, 1w2,1w9,9w1,9w8

White=Melancholy=Enneagrams 1,5,6,9

*Melancholies are introverted creators.

Possible combos under White, aka Melancholies

White/Red
ISTJ (Mel/Chlor) Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 1s.
INTJ(Mel/Chlor) Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 9s, 5s & 6s.

White/Yellow
Some INFPs and INTPs may fall into this category. (Mel/San)
Likely Enneagrams include predominantly 4s & 5s.

White/Blue
INFJ (Mel/Phleg)
Enneagram 4&9 variations are prevalent among this breed of INFJs
 
Last edited:

Ene

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Eek, to anyone who may have read it just now and gotten a bunch of repeated stuff within a single post, I apologize. I went to edit on the ipad and screwed it up. So, I've gone back and fixed it. Hopefully, it will make a little bit of sense now.
 

uumlau

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I find it interesting that INTJ is matched with 9, 5 and 6, even as I still hear how unlikely it is that I could possibly be both a 9 and an INTJ.

As for temperament theory in general, I think it has more in common with Keirsey and the Big Five than MBTI or Enneagram.

Both Keirsey and Big Five are primarily concerned with personality. The tests for both of these strike me as being along the lines of asking "What color shirt do you usually wear?" and you answer "red". Then the test results tell you, "You are a red-shirt-wearing person."

I mean, REALLY?! The only thing your test can tell me about my personality is what I tell it?

The MBTI and Enneagram are more subtle, in that the personality aspect isn't the primary focus. MBTI was originally designed with the idea of determining which Jungian functions were at play in your psyche, so while it nominally determines your personality, it really tries to determine "how you think". Similarly, while the Enneagram tries to sort your personality, the real goal isn't to determine your personality, so much as use your personality as a basis for determining "how you cope".

Personality is just the most obvious gateway to determining the rest.

I would say that the "convergence" of all these personality systems is superficial, as each and every one is trying to determine "personality". The real question, to me, is whether the system tells me anything NEW.

And sometimes, one's personality doesn't match up that closely, especially with Enneagram, as several personality types tend to identify with various different Enneagram types. Then you need to look more closely. E.g., MBTI might give you INTx, and you're unsure of J vs P. INTJs and INTPs have very similar personalities, but how they think differs by quite a degree. So suddenly you need to figure out the functions in order to determine INTJ vs INTP, instead of the other way around. Same with Enneagram. If I had to rely on personality for Enneagram, I'd probably settle on 5w6, since I'm an INTJ and have a generally INTJ-ish personality. But I don't identify with 5w6 at all, even though it superficially describes my personality.
 

highlander

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I really like this topic and will post more on it a bit later. It will take me a while to compose.
 

Xander

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On usual pedantic fashion, it will all point the same way because they are methods of describing the same thing.

The problem I see you've got here, in my estimation, is that you're trying to further refine a person's definition through a system. I've found that it never works out neatly and is probably best left at an unfocused level to allow for the maximum variation within each label.
 

Ene

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[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION]thank you for the sources. I will read them and try to get back to everyone tonight.

I have several thoughts on it.

I do want to say, [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] that I am curious as to the reasoning people give that an INTJ cannot be a 9. Is it sound? Is it backed by any evidence or experts in the field?
 

Totenkindly

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I do want to say that I am curious as to the reasoning people give that an INTJ cannot be a 9. Is it sound? Is it backed by any evidence or experts in the field?

I'm actually curious why people would think INTJ's *would* be E9's. The two styles seem to be rather contractory to me. A 1w9? Maybe. 1 seems reasonable for INJs. But not a root 9. IxxP seems a better fit for someone who naturally flexes away from conflict and is seeking to smooth things over all the time, that's not really a Te thing.
 

Xander

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Does seek to smooth things over naturally equate to a talent for doing so?
 

á´…eparted

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One thing that I found odd is I am solidly choleric/melancholy, and phlegmetic is my lowest. Yet, that's supposed to be my secondary.
 

uumlau

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I do want to say, [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] that I am curious as to the reasoning people give that an INTJ cannot be a 9. Is it sound? Is it backed by any evidence or experts in the field?

The reasoning seems to be along the lines of "INFP, ISFP, ISFJ and INFJ" are much more likely to be type 9s, and INTJs are so infrequently typed as 9s, therefore it's much more likely that the INTJ 9 is mistyped, either not being a 9 or not being an INTJ. In short, an INTJ 9 is impossible "because feelings".

And THEN they use that to argue that I must be INFJ, as I'm nice enough to be a 9. Let's just say the "not really an INTJ" bug is pretty bad on INTJf, where no one other than a cranky asshole could possibly be an INTJ. The irony is that I type several of those cranky assholes as ISTP, myself, based on their communication patterns. E.g., INTJs tend to build arguments and present them as truth; taking potshots at others' ideas and declaring yourself right by virtue of the other guy being wrong is a Ti game.

I doesn't matter to these people that I have stories such as helping you understand the INTJ in your life better, with you being clearly INFJ and my clearly identifying with your INTJ friend. That kind of example "isn't an argument", because anecdotal. I feel like I'm saying, "I ate an apple today. My friend ate an orange," and getting the reply, "No you didn't. You ate an orange, not an apple, and your arguments to the contrary are bogus."

One guy I'm thinking of self-types as INFP, and I'm pretty sure he's INTP (INFPs do not insist upon literal logic, in my experience), so it's not as if I regard his typology acumen to be reliable. ;)

Yeah, that's quite a bit of a tangent, but you asked. :) If you're interested, I can message you the links where these kinds of arguments are being made.
 

Mal12345

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I don't have a "game." :)
 

Z Buck McFate

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^I don't mean to derail (and in a way, this is a statement about mbti Ti types and temperament)- but I often get the 'all reality is a game' feeling from Ti doms. It wouldn't surprise me if Ti doms don't see it (in that 'if you're wearing glasses with red lenses, you probably can't see red things' kind of way), but I understand what uumlau is describing when he talks about Ti dialogue being like a 'game'.

[To clarify: I could be wrong, but I don't think he means it in a bad way. At least, I don't mean it in a bad way. It's just a certain lightheartedness/detachment that seems particular to Ti.]
 

Mal12345

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^I don't mean to derail (and in a way, this is a statement about mbti Ti types and temperament)- but I often get the 'all reality is a game' feeling from Ti doms. It wouldn't surprise me if Ti doms don't see it (in that 'if you're wearing glasses with red lenses, you probably can't see red things' kind of way), but I understand what uumlau is describing when he talks about Ti dialogue being like a 'game'.

Sigh. Ok, you're right. It's just not the game described above.
 

uumlau

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Sigh. Ok, you're right. It's just not the game described above.

Not all Ti types employ all "Ti games". Keep in mind I'm looking at this from a Te point of view, where things are usually considered in very direct terms, and a lot of what Ti types do and say looks very much like a "game" from our direct point of view. I intend the term descriptively, not pejoratively. Instead of going straight for conclusions like a Te type, a Ti type will go around in various logical circles, playing with ideas in various ways. Nothing wrong with the playing, but it can be frustrating for us Te types. It is also a good litmus test: if you see those kinds of logical games going on, you're very likely dealing with a Ti type.

Or to put it very generally, think of "Ti game" as "lack of directness from a Te point of view". I sense that lack of directness very acutely in conversations.

(If this is getting too tangential Ene, I'll just shut up about it. I don't mean to derail the thread with my tangential thoughts on your question.)
 

Bush

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] would be all over this one.

Throw the DISC system in there, too. That's also pretty much a repackaging of the temperaments.
 

highlander

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According to a website called business balls.com and other various online resources (which I won't bore you with right now), most modern personality systems are just refined variants of the age-old temperament theory. It has bothered me ever since I started studying MBTI as to how these various systems fit together.

I mean while I know there are technically infinite variations on human cognitive processes, behavior, etc., it seems to reason that in some very basic ways, they must converge. There must be basic patterns where a particular arrangement of cognitive functions provide an inclination toward certain behaviors, or where certain temperaments give way to particular sets of cognitive functions. (I say this because patterns and sequences make up the very framework of our existence, DNA, for example.)

I know this topic has been discussed on here before, but I want to hear your thoughts again, ESPECIALLY if you have been studying it for several years and if you have delved into various systems. Before learning of MBTI, I spent many hours researching the Four Temperaments theory. And now, my aunt has introduced me to the color theory, which is nothing but temperament under a new name. I have purposely left out the supine temperament, as I believe it can be accounted for within various secondary combos of extroverted and introverted tendencies.

I've been analyzing these connections between the systems for probably 20 years looking for commonalities and differences. In answer to your question, I have never researched the original four temperaments. My lens has been towards Kiersey temperaments but yes, I believe many of them do tie back to all of the same things. Here are examples:

The first book I read about personality type was something called The Platinum Rule, which included four types: Director, Socializer, Thinker, Relator. Interestingly, they had 16 types, where you would have a primary and secondary of any of those four (sound familiar)? I came out as Relating Director but close between Relating and Thinking (think Enneagram 6 for relating + INTJ for director).

Then I read about MBTI, Kiersey and Cognitive Functions. We all know what those types are. It seems to operate from three perspectives -
1) The dumbed down polarities version (P vs J or N vs S) which was created to simplify things for an uneducated public; later enhanced to include the facets under each letter, making it more interesting but somewhat distorting the original concept which had been based on jungian functions
2) The more nuanced ordering of the the first two of the 8 cognitive functions, which I think is the more logically consistent way to view things and I thought what MBTI was supposed to be based on anyway
3) Kiersey Temperaments, which seems like a creative interpretation of the first two, adding it's own spin, but fundamentally sound in some really important ways. I tend to think of parts of it as genius and other parts fiction
On those three, I tend to lump them all together with a view that #2 is the actual correct way to look at things, with 1 and 3 offering useful shorthand that is imperfect in real application.

There is Helen Fisher's system which she uses for Match.com. Her types which roughly correspond to temperaments are Builder (SJ), Explorer (SP), Negotiator (NF), Director (NT). Of course, she has a similar thing to the Platinum Rule, where there is a primary and secondary dimension - again totaling to 16 types. I have tested as a Director primary and Builder secondarily. She has another system for businesses to use, which includes Driver, Guardian, Pioneer, Integrator. I'm not sure if it's the same exactly as the dating thing but on that, I came out as Driver primary and Pioneer secondary, which is pretty much an INTJ profile. The key difference in her research is that she focused on the hormones in our bodies or something and not specifically on cognitive thought processes. I have wondered if there is some kind of relationship between those two that nobody has researched or published on.

There are more. I read a book called Brainstyles, which had four key types are deliberators, knowers, conceptors, and conciliators. Conceptors are sort of like NTs but not completely. Conciliators are sort of like NFs and Deliberators like SJs - but the match wasn't perfect. There is another book that was once popular called The Art of Thinking. Sally Hogshead's stuff is more recent and interesting but I don't know quite what to make of it yet. It seems like further derivation and nuanced version of MBTI. I could bore you with others, but that is a summary of a few of the major ones I've looked at, which all seem to derive from a temperaments and cognitive brain function/thinking patterns.

Enneagram to me is a completely separate and different system and one that provides completely separate data points. I see it as based on basic fears and distortions in the way we perceive and respond to stimuli. A INTJ 5 vs 8 vs 1 vs 6 for example is going to have some substantial differences, and I do believe that each of the 16 types has a wide variety of possibilities for enneagram, though there are obvious commonalities. Instincts are really important as well and have nothing to do with temperaments.
 

Ene

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I'm actually curious why people would think INTJ's *would* be E9's. The two styles seem to be rather contractory to me. A 1w9? Maybe. 1 seems reasonable for INJs. But not a root 9. IxxP seems a better fit for someone who naturally flexes away from conflict and is seeking to smooth things over all the time, that's not really a Te thing.

Thanks, Jennifer. I think that the reason I can see an INTJ as "possibly" [I never set anything in stone] being a 9 is that the ones I know and have come to believe are truly INTJs don't thrive on conflict, debate and discussion, yes, but conflict, no. A healthy debate is merely an exchange of ideas, but a conflict is energy-draining and time consuming. It's an inefficient expenditure.

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] Actually, I never meant it as a "supposed" to be. It's just what I thought was a likely possibility. Please, give me your reasoning behind why an ENFJ is more accurately a Chlor/Mel. That's what this thread is all about. Let me know your rationale.

[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] I don't mind your tangent at all. I am prone to them myself sometimes! (so you're in good company;)) I DID ask. Thank you for telling me. Unlikely does not equal impossible.

And THEN they use that to argue that I must be INFJ, as I'm nice enough to be a 9. Let's just say the "not really an INTJ" bug is pretty bad on INTJf, where no one other than a cranky asshole could possibly be an INTJ.
I really think this is an unfair misconception, a stereo-type and most of the INTJs I know, whom I know to actually be INTJs, don't actually fit it and the ones that do are usually online and may or may not be what they claim to be.

doesn't matter to these people that I have stories such as helping you understand the INTJ in your life better, with you being clearly INFJ and my clearly identifying with your INTJ friend. That kind of example "isn't an argument", because anecdotal. I feel like I'm saying, "I ate an apple today. My friend ate an orange," and getting the reply, "No you didn't. You ate an orange, not an apple, and your arguments to the contrary are bogus."

I totally understand. I have felt that way just today in a conversation irl. You're right. It doesn't matter to some of them. I think some people are so worried about being the one who knows something or being right that they won't look at a whole body of evidences. Anecdotal records do provide evidence.
 

Ene

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[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] I thank you so much for this post. I have to run right now but will be back to read carefully.
 
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