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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Not all Ti types employ all "Ti games". Keep in mind I'm looking at this from a Te point of view, where things are usually considered in very direct terms, and a lot of what Ti types do and say looks very much like a "game" from our direct point of view. I intend the term descriptively, not pejoratively. Instead of going straight for conclusions like a Te type, a Ti type will go around in various logical circles, playing with ideas in various ways. Nothing wrong with the playing, but it can be frustrating for us Te types. It is also a good litmus test: if you see those kinds of logical games going on, you're very likely dealing with a Ti type.

    Or to put it very generally, think of "Ti game" as "lack of directness from a Te point of view". I sense that lack of directness very acutely in conversations.

    (If this is getting too tangential Ene, I'll just shut up about it. I don't mean to derail the thread with my tangential thoughts on your question.)
    This is understandable.

    Also Ti dominant types seem to dwell on accuracy of speech--"you said this earlier, but what you say now contradicts that. please clarify what you meant." "let's define the word _____ first." And so on. It can make them appear nit-picky. They can also appear nitpicky about details. Shit has to line up with their definition and if it doesn't they might get stuck on semantics and veer away from the original meat of whatever was being discussed or argued.

    This can be their own worst enemy in an argument or discussion.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @highlanderFirst, thank you for taking the time to make this response. It really means a lot to me when people provide thoughtful responses (that goes for all who have been discussing this with me), because I believe time is One of the most important things you can give a person. So, thank you for really hearing I was trying to say. You managed to get right to the heart (or should I say mind) of it.

    The first book I read about personality type was something called The Platinum Rule, which included four types: Director, Socializer, Thinker, Relator. Interestingly, they had 16 types, where you would have a primary and secondary of any of those four (sound familiar)? I came out as Relating Director but close between Relating and Thinking (think Enneagram 6 for relating + INTJ for director).
    Sounds very familiar.

    1) The dumbed down polarities version (P vs J or N vs S) which was created to simplify things for an uneducated public; later enhanced to include the facets under each letter, making it more interesting but somewhat distorting the original concept which had been based on jungian functions
    2) The more nuanced ordering of the the first two of the 8 cognitive functions, which I think is the more logically consistent way to view things and I thought what MBTI was supposed to be based on anyway
    3) Kiersey Temperaments, which seems like a creative interpretation of the first two, adding it's own spin, but fundamentally sound in some really important ways. I tend to think of parts of it as genius and other parts fiction. On those three, I tend to lump them all together with a view that #2 is the actual correct way to look at things, with 1 and 3 offering useful shorthand that is imperfect in real application.
    I would have to agree with you.

    All the further evidences you go on to mention, except the Enneagram, seem to be able to be boiled down in their simplistic forms, to four basic types, which line-up with some aspect of MBTI. Whether they be lumped as ST, SF, NT, NFs or as ExxPs, ExxJs, IxxPs, IxxJs or Ne, Ni, Se, Si or however. It still comes down to the four basics. I guess it's just my nature to need to know how each system relates to the others when I encounter it. Apparently, it's in your nature, too. Haha.

    Thanks for the helpful Enneagram link. I have to confess that I have never been comfortable with the Enneagram system. Still, varying instincts do account for why two people of the same type, while basically put together the same way, can yet be so different.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #23
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
    This can be their own worst enemy in an argument or discussion.
    Correction, your worst enemy, our super power!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #24
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    Yes i think many modern personality measurements are just refinements of old ones. Even Jung bases his typology largely on other peoples work, much of psychological types is reviewing older models and jung talking about why/how aspects of personality should be viewed a little differently. Then big 5, eysencs model incorporates I/E on them, which was introduced by jung(which he refined from earlier models of personality). I think its useful to learn as many models as possible to get the full picture of things. Big 5, jungian, enneagram maybe most important imo. But also there is some research done on eysencs model(which is basically first version of big 5, dealing with only 3 aspects of personality) for example, like some study that one showed that extraverts have more info going to their visual cortex(and thus create sort of expectations about the external world) and introverts have more info leaving visual cortex(for further processing and abstractions), which i think really helps to understand I/E in any model(and gives proofs for jungs idea of I/E), even tho the study was made based on eysencs model.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Yes i think many modern personality measurements are just refinements of old ones. Even Jung bases his typology largely on other peoples work, much of psychological types is reviewing older models and jung talking about why/how aspects of personality should be viewed a little differently. Then big 5, eysencs model incorporates I/E on them, which was introduced by jung(which he refined from earlier models of personality). I think its useful to learn as many models as possible to get the full picture of things. Big 5, jungian, enneagram maybe most important imo. But also there is some research done on eysencs model(which is basically first version of big 5, dealing with only 3 aspects of personality) for example, like some study that one showed that extraverts have more info going to their visual cortex(and thus create sort of expectations about the external world) and introverts have more info leaving visual cortex(for further processing and abstractions), which i think really helps to understand I/E in any model(and gives proofs for jungs idea of I/E), even tho the study was made based on eysencs model.
    First, I apologize for being slow in getting back here and secondly, thank you for this post. What I really found interesting is bolded. I think you're right in saying the model lends proof to Jung's idea of I/E.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  6. #26

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    I still think Fromm's theories about social character have yet to have their day.

    Although that said he'd have thought it a more fluid idea than even the categories he identified in his own day or the overarching dichotomy of biophilious and necrophilious.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    First, I apologize for being slow in getting back here and secondly, thank you for this post. What I really found interesting is bolded. I think you're right in saying the model lends proof to Jung's idea of I/E.
    Oh the model itself is basically big 5's earlier model, with only 3 dimensions(introversion/extraversion, which is similar to big 5's I/E, neuroticism also another thing incorporated to big 5, and psychoticism/socialisation) Eysenck Personality Questionnaire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . This study was just one study made on topic and it could had as well be done on big 5 or jungs model and im sure that similar results would had came out because the definitions for I/E are so much alike. But do note that this isnt the only thing they have found in brain scans about I/E, for example there is a difference on brain arousal and now just recently they published this study: The neuroanatomical delineation of agentic and affiliative extraversion - Online First - Springer
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I still think Fromm's theories about social character have yet to have their day.

    Although that said he'd have thought it a more fluid idea than even the categories he identified in his own day or the overarching dichotomy of biophilious and necrophilious.
    They do teach fromms theories in social psychology at least in finland, i think its one of the most well known names in the field of social psychology..
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    They do teach fromms theories in social psychology at least in finland, i think its one of the most well known names in the field of social psychology..
    That's interesting because he's not well known at all in the UK or Ireland, from what I can tell, sometimes he's afforded a footnote and described as a popularising or a bridging theorist and of no real consequence, wrote a couple of self-help books, that sort of thing, or was some sort of social critic, still worse that he was a one time traitor to marxism and a lot of lies about his differences with the frankfurt school for social research and discourse with Marcuse are still peddled.

    I saw some good resources about Fromm on one or two university professors websites from the states, which is something, its not the entire english speaking world who have forgot about him but by and large he's forgotten, like Karen Horney, Wilhem Reich or Harry Stack Sullivan.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's interesting because he's not well known at all in the UK or Ireland, from what I can tell, sometimes he's afforded a footnote and described as a popularising or a bridging theorist and of no real consequence, wrote a couple of self-help books, that sort of thing, or was some sort of social critic, still worse that he was a one time traitor to marxism and a lot of lies about his differences with the frankfurt school for social research and discourse with Marcuse are still peddled.

    I saw some good resources about Fromm on one or two university professors websites from the states, which is something, its not the entire english speaking world who have forgot about him but by and large he's forgotten, like Karen Horney, Wilhem Reich or Harry Stack Sullivan.
    But the thing with academia is that science on social psychology(and psychology in general) has advanced quite a bit since horney(she was also mentioned in our personality psychology 1 class, and quickly went through some of her concepts). Their ideas still live, but their ideas have been advanced since their time and these new ideas influenced by fromm are studied more than fromms original work.

    I dont really know what people over the world think of fromm, but his wiki page says this about him: "Erich Fromm oli Suomessa erittäin suosittu yhteiskuntafilosofi jo 1960-luvulla, mutta erityisesti 1970-luvulla. Hänen suomennetun tuotantonsa määräkin kertoo paljon tästä suosiosta. Vain harva ulkomaalainen filosofi ja yhteiskuntakriitikko on päässyt vastaaviin lukuihin.". Which translates to: Fromm was extremely popular social philosopher 60's and more so in 70's. His vast amount of translated works to finnish tell about his popularity. Only a few foreign philosopher and social critic has reached same numbers in translations.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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