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  1. #11
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    One thing that I found odd is I am solidly choleric/melancholy, and phlegmetic is my lowest. Yet, that's supposed to be my secondary.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  2. #12
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I do want to say, @uumlau that I am curious as to the reasoning people give that an INTJ cannot be a 9. Is it sound? Is it backed by any evidence or experts in the field?
    The reasoning seems to be along the lines of "INFP, ISFP, ISFJ and INFJ" are much more likely to be type 9s, and INTJs are so infrequently typed as 9s, therefore it's much more likely that the INTJ 9 is mistyped, either not being a 9 or not being an INTJ. In short, an INTJ 9 is impossible "because feelings".

    And THEN they use that to argue that I must be INFJ, as I'm nice enough to be a 9. Let's just say the "not really an INTJ" bug is pretty bad on INTJf, where no one other than a cranky asshole could possibly be an INTJ. The irony is that I type several of those cranky assholes as ISTP, myself, based on their communication patterns. E.g., INTJs tend to build arguments and present them as truth; taking potshots at others' ideas and declaring yourself right by virtue of the other guy being wrong is a Ti game.

    I doesn't matter to these people that I have stories such as helping you understand the INTJ in your life better, with you being clearly INFJ and my clearly identifying with your INTJ friend. That kind of example "isn't an argument", because anecdotal. I feel like I'm saying, "I ate an apple today. My friend ate an orange," and getting the reply, "No you didn't. You ate an orange, not an apple, and your arguments to the contrary are bogus."

    One guy I'm thinking of self-types as INFP, and I'm pretty sure he's INTP (INFPs do not insist upon literal logic, in my experience), so it's not as if I regard his typology acumen to be reliable.

    Yeah, that's quite a bit of a tangent, but you asked. If you're interested, I can message you the links where these kinds of arguments are being made.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I don't have a "game."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    ^I don't mean to derail (and in a way, this is a statement about mbti Ti types and temperament)- but I often get the 'all reality is a game' feeling from Ti doms. It wouldn't surprise me if Ti doms don't see it (in that 'if you're wearing glasses with red lenses, you probably can't see red things' kind of way), but I understand what uumlau is describing when he talks about Ti dialogue being like a 'game'.

    [To clarify: I could be wrong, but I don't think he means it in a bad way. At least, I don't mean it in a bad way. It's just a certain lightheartedness/detachment that seems particular to Ti.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ^I don't mean to derail (and in a way, this is a statement about mbti Ti types and temperament)- but I often get the 'all reality is a game' feeling from Ti doms. It wouldn't surprise me if Ti doms don't see it (in that 'if you're wearing glasses with red lenses, you probably can't see red things' kind of way), but I understand what uumlau is describing when he talks about Ti dialogue being like a 'game'.
    Sigh. Ok, you're right. It's just not the game described above.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Sigh. Ok, you're right. It's just not the game described above.
    Not all Ti types employ all "Ti games". Keep in mind I'm looking at this from a Te point of view, where things are usually considered in very direct terms, and a lot of what Ti types do and say looks very much like a "game" from our direct point of view. I intend the term descriptively, not pejoratively. Instead of going straight for conclusions like a Te type, a Ti type will go around in various logical circles, playing with ideas in various ways. Nothing wrong with the playing, but it can be frustrating for us Te types. It is also a good litmus test: if you see those kinds of logical games going on, you're very likely dealing with a Ti type.

    Or to put it very generally, think of "Ti game" as "lack of directness from a Te point of view". I sense that lack of directness very acutely in conversations.

    (If this is getting too tangential Ene, I'll just shut up about it. I don't mean to derail the thread with my tangential thoughts on your question.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #17
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    @Eric B would be all over this one.

    Throw the DISC system in there, too. That's also pretty much a repackaging of the temperaments.
    J. Scott Crothers
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  8. #18
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    According to a website called business balls.com and other various online resources (which I won't bore you with right now), most modern personality systems are just refined variants of the age-old temperament theory. It has bothered me ever since I started studying MBTI as to how these various systems fit together.

    I mean while I know there are technically infinite variations on human cognitive processes, behavior, etc., it seems to reason that in some very basic ways, they must converge. There must be basic patterns where a particular arrangement of cognitive functions provide an inclination toward certain behaviors, or where certain temperaments give way to particular sets of cognitive functions. (I say this because patterns and sequences make up the very framework of our existence, DNA, for example.)

    I know this topic has been discussed on here before, but I want to hear your thoughts again, ESPECIALLY if you have been studying it for several years and if you have delved into various systems. Before learning of MBTI, I spent many hours researching the Four Temperaments theory. And now, my aunt has introduced me to the color theory, which is nothing but temperament under a new name. I have purposely left out the supine temperament, as I believe it can be accounted for within various secondary combos of extroverted and introverted tendencies.
    I've been analyzing these connections between the systems for probably 20 years looking for commonalities and differences. In answer to your question, I have never researched the original four temperaments. My lens has been towards Kiersey temperaments but yes, I believe many of them do tie back to all of the same things. Here are examples:

    The first book I read about personality type was something called The Platinum Rule, which included four types: Director, Socializer, Thinker, Relator. Interestingly, they had 16 types, where you would have a primary and secondary of any of those four (sound familiar)? I came out as Relating Director but close between Relating and Thinking (think Enneagram 6 for relating + INTJ for director).

    Then I read about MBTI, Kiersey and Cognitive Functions. We all know what those types are. It seems to operate from three perspectives -
    1) The dumbed down polarities version (P vs J or N vs S) which was created to simplify things for an uneducated public; later enhanced to include the facets under each letter, making it more interesting but somewhat distorting the original concept which had been based on jungian functions
    2) The more nuanced ordering of the the first two of the 8 cognitive functions, which I think is the more logically consistent way to view things and I thought what MBTI was supposed to be based on anyway
    3) Kiersey Temperaments, which seems like a creative interpretation of the first two, adding it's own spin, but fundamentally sound in some really important ways. I tend to think of parts of it as genius and other parts fiction
    On those three, I tend to lump them all together with a view that #2 is the actual correct way to look at things, with 1 and 3 offering useful shorthand that is imperfect in real application.

    There is Helen Fisher's system which she uses for Match.com. Her types which roughly correspond to temperaments are Builder (SJ), Explorer (SP), Negotiator (NF), Director (NT). Of course, she has a similar thing to the Platinum Rule, where there is a primary and secondary dimension - again totaling to 16 types. I have tested as a Director primary and Builder secondarily. She has another system for businesses to use, which includes Driver, Guardian, Pioneer, Integrator. I'm not sure if it's the same exactly as the dating thing but on that, I came out as Driver primary and Pioneer secondary, which is pretty much an INTJ profile. The key difference in her research is that she focused on the hormones in our bodies or something and not specifically on cognitive thought processes. I have wondered if there is some kind of relationship between those two that nobody has researched or published on.

    There are more. I read a book called Brainstyles, which had four key types are deliberators, knowers, conceptors, and conciliators. Conceptors are sort of like NTs but not completely. Conciliators are sort of like NFs and Deliberators like SJs - but the match wasn't perfect. There is another book that was once popular called The Art of Thinking. Sally Hogshead's stuff is more recent and interesting but I don't know quite what to make of it yet. It seems like further derivation and nuanced version of MBTI. I could bore you with others, but that is a summary of a few of the major ones I've looked at, which all seem to derive from a temperaments and cognitive brain function/thinking patterns.

    Enneagram to me is a completely separate and different system and one that provides completely separate data points. I see it as based on basic fears and distortions in the way we perceive and respond to stimuli. A INTJ 5 vs 8 vs 1 vs 6 for example is going to have some substantial differences, and I do believe that each of the 16 types has a wide variety of possibilities for enneagram, though there are obvious commonalities. Instincts are really important as well and have nothing to do with temperaments.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm actually curious why people would think INTJ's *would* be E9's. The two styles seem to be rather contractory to me. A 1w9? Maybe. 1 seems reasonable for INJs. But not a root 9. IxxP seems a better fit for someone who naturally flexes away from conflict and is seeking to smooth things over all the time, that's not really a Te thing.
    Thanks, Jennifer. I think that the reason I can see an INTJ as "possibly" [I never set anything in stone] being a 9 is that the ones I know and have come to believe are truly INTJs don't thrive on conflict, debate and discussion, yes, but conflict, no. A healthy debate is merely an exchange of ideas, but a conflict is energy-draining and time consuming. It's an inefficient expenditure.

    @Hard Actually, I never meant it as a "supposed" to be. It's just what I thought was a likely possibility. Please, give me your reasoning behind why an ENFJ is more accurately a Chlor/Mel. That's what this thread is all about. Let me know your rationale.

    @uumlau I don't mind your tangent at all. I am prone to them myself sometimes! (so you're in good company) I DID ask. Thank you for telling me. Unlikely does not equal impossible.

    And THEN they use that to argue that I must be INFJ, as I'm nice enough to be a 9. Let's just say the "not really an INTJ" bug is pretty bad on INTJf, where no one other than a cranky asshole could possibly be an INTJ.
    I really think this is an unfair misconception, a stereo-type and most of the INTJs I know, whom I know to actually be INTJs, don't actually fit it and the ones that do are usually online and may or may not be what they claim to be.

    doesn't matter to these people that I have stories such as helping you understand the INTJ in your life better, with you being clearly INFJ and my clearly identifying with your INTJ friend. That kind of example "isn't an argument", because anecdotal. I feel like I'm saying, "I ate an apple today. My friend ate an orange," and getting the reply, "No you didn't. You ate an orange, not an apple, and your arguments to the contrary are bogus."
    I totally understand. I have felt that way just today in a conversation irl. You're right. It doesn't matter to some of them. I think some people are so worried about being the one who knows something or being right that they won't look at a whole body of evidences. Anecdotal records do provide evidence.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #20
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @highlander I thank you so much for this post. I have to run right now but will be back to read carefully.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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