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  1. #1
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Default What are the different effects of reversed process pairs?

    I admit, that question was probably rather inscrutable, but I can't think of a quick way to ask my question. Fortunately, I can ask the long way here.

    By reversed process pairs, I mean something like NiFe vs FeNi.
    As you can see, each of these pairs is comprised of the exact same processes, it's just that they are mirrors of each other's order.
    In effect, in practice, what is the actual difference between NiFe and FeNi?
    This question also applies to all similar comparisons, like TiSe vs SeTi.


    **An explanation of the question**
    If you're wondering exactly why I'm confused, then look here.

    I think I understand each of the cognitive processes pretty well, and as I've come to understand it, no individual process really has merit. That is to say, the processes are such abstract, and such supportive modules, that they can only perform when interacting with another process. Like Ne interacting with Ti.

    Because of this, it seems more important to put the emphasis on pairs of processes at the very least, because it is the unique form of interaction between processes that really matters. i.e. The interaction between two processes is what counts.

    So I understand the important difference between Si + Fe, or Te + Ni, etc.
    But that's only process pairs that differ from each other on at least one process. As I have said, if you compare Ni + Fe to Fe + Ni, they are comprised of the exact same processes. So, supposing it's really the interaction between different processes that matters, what is the relevant different between two process pairs that are comprised of the exact same two processes?

    How would NiFe make someone think differently from FeNi, and why?
    In both cases, Ni is retrieving information in Ni's way, and Fe is analyzing that information in Fe's way. Exactly how could one pair be more Ni or more Fe?

    Hope you haven't been too confused by my question. I tried my best, and I await answers. This is one of the last aspects of the MBTI's system that I don't think I understand.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #2
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    Funny you mention this, and the Fe-Ni combination too... a friend of mine happen to be an ENFJ and I have thought about this myself, how we function together seen from the MBTI viewpoint. I think what's most obvious is that the 2nd function often just work as a support for the leading function. In my case, a little simplified you could say that I am primarily driven by a will to understand things - myself, other people, the world, ("deep stuff") - and my friend is rather first of all driven by a love and concern for people. So I'm Ni most of all, and my Fe helps to direct my Ni, supports it. My friend's Ni adds an intuitive quality to her Fe, which is her primary.

    When having a conversation we both use Ni/Fe, only that my emphasis is usually on Ni while hers is on Fe... for example, I might wanna share something with her about some strange insight I had the other day, like "Have you thought about how all people always seem to work like this or do like that, blablabla"... and then she takes it in, she agrees with me, but when she answers, it is from a Fe perspective: she gets something dreamy in her eyes and say that it's sad, but that deep down in their hearts all people are good etc... a little exaggerated but you get the picture

    I have some times become irritated when I think she lives in some naive, unrealistic, surreal world, projecting her own ideas of goodness and compassion on the outer world, taking it for actual reality. She in her turn can try to impinge her values on me, which I don't really appreciate... ^^ It's as if we are so alike that we want the other to be even more alike ourselves, she wants me to be E, and I want her to be I (we can both be pretty manipulative).

    So, as I see it, the 2nd function is always supporting the 1st, and that's also how they're named: Leading - Supporting.

    Hope this helps answer your question.

  3. #3
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    take INFJ and ENFJ as an example.

    if Ni dominates over Fe, the INFJ will place the most importance on stabilizing a world of concepts, then they will try to apply that concept-structure to the world through Fe. in compromising situations, they will preserve their Ni vision first before attempting to change the environment.

    if Fe dominates over Ni, the concept world is still there, and is still played out by Fe. but the ENFJ will be more likely to act on their Ni vision (concept structure/world, whatever). they'll be significantly more attentive to practical application (socially), and the depth of the Ni vision will be somewhat sacrificed.

    it's not that Fe literally happens before Ni (without Ni, there is no data for Fe to analyze). it's just a spectrum of depth of vision to practicality of vision.

  4. #4
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    it's not that Fe literally happens before Ni (without Ni, there is no data for Fe to analyze). it's just a spectrum of depth of vision to practicality of vision.
    I know that it's not a literal order of sequence. I've already seen the notions on how those play out in the mind, and they are rather unchanging. I was aware that it was more about dominance of a function, but I was still not aware of what that meant in this case.

    I found the rest of your post interesting, though. I'll have to think about it more.

    EDIT: So we could say that some situations exist in which Ni and Fe are mentally in conflict, and so, to resolve the situation, some kind of compromise has to be made, and the INFJ is more likely to compromise the use of Fe while the ENFJ is more likely to compromise the use of Ni. Is that correct?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #5
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    EDIT: So we could say that some situations exist in which Ni and Fe are mentally in conflict, and so, to resolve the situation, some kind of compromise has to be made, and the INFJ is more likely to compromise the use of Fe while the ENFJ is more likely to compromise the use of Ni. Is that correct?
    exactly.

    also, if you think of total processing power as constant, you can think of each use of a function as subtracting from a use of another function. you have to sacrifice depth of vision for practicality/application and vice versa.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    Each function gives you a certain perspective of looking at the world and you cling considerably more to your dominant function than your secondary. It´s not so much that you compromise the use of your secondary, because you haven´t invested that much in it in the first place.

    For example, my mother is an ESFJ and puts an emphasis on meeting obligations to your relatives. It doesn´t matter if you like them or not, if it´s a family member you have to be kind to them, remember their birthday, spend time with them and have a good relationship. She also worries about what other people think a lot and tries to fulfill her social role.
    My father is an ISFJ. He resists stubbornly if my mother tries to force him to have a closer relationship to his relatives. His emphasis is on fulfilling his own obligations. If he gave his word he tries to be on time and be helpful whereas my mother is notoriously unpunctual.

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...What is the relevant different between two process pairs that are comprised of the exact same two processes?

    How would NiFe make someone think differently from FeNi, and why?
    In both cases, Ni is retrieving information in Ni's way, and Fe is analyzing that information in Fe's way. Exactly how could one pair be more Ni or more Fe?
    This is very very general, but:

    For FeNi:
    The primary goal is generated by Fe (to honor and maintain the relational structure).
    It utilizes Ni to support Fe's goal.

    We're talking ENFJ here. Ni is used to allow the ENFJ to understand and perceive various perspectives, all of the purpose of integrating people into the relational web.

    For NiFe:
    The primary goal is generated by Ni (to catalyze change and growth, envision change and transformation, having all future potential at one's fingertips).
    It uses Fe to accomplish this -- the relational web, a way of interacting with others.

    Actualization then, unlike as much as INTJ, is given towards personal growth, human potential, relational actualization. That set of social mores and how people "should interact" guides/steers Ni through the endless quantity of possibilities to settle on the most effective and powerful process of change.

    Ignore the gross generalizations, but this is the gist.


    let's take INTP vs ENTP:

    Ti+Ne
    Thinking drives the ship.
    It uses Ne to determine what data gets fed into Ti's hopper.
    Ti is interested in the logical proof, the mental model. That's its goal: To state what can be stated about something, no more and no less. It uses Ne to sense potentiality and clarify its thinking process.

    Ne+Ti
    Ne drives the ship.
    Ti is used to support Ne's quest to perceive and explore possibilities.
    This is why ENTP likes to tinker with things in the real world more than INTPs tend to. It's a sense of "Wow, I wonder what *this* does" and it uses its understanding of the natural processes (Ti) to guide the exploration.



    .... now, to confuse things even further... what about INFJs who were forced to depend more on Fe growing up? They still have the introverted bent in their interaction style, but their Fe might be far more apparent. What impact does this have on personality? Same with INTP. And any other introverted type, who I think this easily can happen to.
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  8. #8
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    We would be an example of a conflict situation between Ni and Fe? I suppose there could be a situation where the majority values would pressure someone to not imagine certain things or think in certain ways... Does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    let's take INTP vs ENTP:

    Ti+Ne
    Thinking drives the ship.
    It uses Ne to determine what data gets fed into Ti's hopper.
    Ti is interested in the logical proof, the mental model. That's its goal: To state what can be stated about something, no more and no less. It uses Ne to sense potentiality and clarify its thinking process.

    Ne+Ti
    Ne drives the ship.
    Ti is used to support Ne's quest to perceive and explore possibilities.
    This is why ENTP likes to tinker with things in the real world more than INTPs tend to. It's a sense of "Wow, I wonder what *this* does" and it uses its understanding of the natural processes (Ti) to guide the exploration.
    That actually makes me sound a bit like an ENTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    .... now, to confuse things even further... what about INFJs who were forced to depend more on Fe growing up? They still have the introverted bent in their interaction style, but their Fe might be far more apparent. What impact does this have on personality? Same with INTP. And any other introverted type, who I think this easily can happen to.
    That doesn't bother me too much, since i've already realized that the MBTI has a rather inflexible notation system. My question was more related to the cognitive process themselves than to MB types, I was just using the MBTI to make my example. I think of processes on a sliding scale instead of being boolean, and I imagine that they can develop in more than just sixteen orders, so I'm aware of the great, subtle variety.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #9
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    The INTP generates new ideas in order to get at the precise truth. An ENTP uses the precise truth in order to generate new ideas.

    The INTP is more oriented toward answering questions, while the ENTP is more oriented toward asking questions.

    An ENFJ generates a personal vision in order to grow their relationships. An INFJ generates relationships in order to grow their personal vision.

    An ENFJ uses their understanding to master the interpersonal world. An INFJ uses the interpersonal world to master their understanding.
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