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  1. #1
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default Linguistic Determinism

    Right, I'll try to put down my understanding of this, which is imperfect and possibly complete rubbish but it spurred thought so tough.

    Language defines reality. Language is used to define reality and as it has been carefully attributed it is safe to say that the words used define the thing they are attributed to.

    Language describes reality. Language, although used to define things, is unrelated to reality and exists apart.

    There's probably a thousand better ways to put it and hopefully someone here is more of an expert than I. The thought spurred was, do certain types show a preference to one or the other? I certainly tend to find I will question say a person who says they are an INTP or an ENTJ if they are of the belief that language and reality are linked directly.

    Which side do you hold to most?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #2
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Not quite sure what you mean, to be honest. Do you mean that our version of reality is shaped by language? Because I agree with that. Not that language has any effect on reality, because reality is objective and exists apart from us. But I do think that our perception of reality is subjective, and is influenced by language.

    Linguistics has always fascinated me. I think primarily in words, and when I've taken multiple intelligence tests, I've always scored highly in linguistics. But I know that there are other people who think in pictures (also known as visual thinking). Is their concept of reality different than mine? I imagine it would be. It's interesting to think about.
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    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Language aids a perceptual outlook of reality.

    If you speak in real sentences (like I do) you'll dispel any illusion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As I have been doing so in the last several months.

  4. #4
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Consider the term soul. We believe we're superior to other mammals because we have a soul. We can't find it anywhere but we have labelled it and so it becomes part of the social consciousness (if you're into that kind of thinking). Whatever is being observed is obviously unaffected by our definition but many of us mammals proceed like we've nailed it. No need to look back, we labelled it.

    It's most prevalent in management circles when they believe that because they have called something culture change that they have changed the culture. An easy trap to my eyes but to theirs I'm overly critical and "think too much".

    However it seems that it's an official "thing". Some people operate that way, I had to wonder if it's related to typology somehow as it would seem indicative of a certain way of thinking.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #5
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    a majority of people think with words as opposed to pictures

    though labeling horse shit as lavender isn't going to change perception much... there's only so much you can do with language

    all of this would bring up questions though, such as would what language is spoken really have much of an effect on things? for instance, if you say the word SKULL in english it sounds kind of like something that a barbarian may wish to drink the blood of those they've killed from, but if you go with spanish it's CALAVERA, which sounds significantly more friendly and pleasant

    and then it is said that if you repeat something about yourself enough to yourself you end up believing it to be true (depending on how easily you lie to yourself perhaps?)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  6. #6
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    a majority of people think with words as opposed to pictures

    though labeling horse shit as lavender isn't going to change perception much... there's only so much you can do with language

    all of this would bring up questions though, such as would what language is spoken really have much of an effect on things? for instance, if you say the word SKULL in english it sounds kind of like something that a barbarian may wish to drink the blood of those they've killed from, but if you go with spanish it's CALAVERA, which sounds significantly more friendly and pleasant

    and then it is said that if you repeat something about yourself enough to yourself you end up believing it to be true (depending on how easily you lie to yourself perhaps?)
    You'd be amazed how important it is at my work that the numbers given to someone in their yearly appraisal are referred to as scores not ratings. As the number doesn't even effect your pay I find little logical reason but they think it helps to keep people positive. Words do have power, especially to those who follow a deterministic path.
    Consider this, what stops you killing someone were you sufficiently motivated? Most would reply it's illegal but that only sets out what will happen to you. It does not hamper your ability to continue.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #7
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You'd be amazed how important it is at my work that the numbers given to someone in their yearly appraisal are referred to as scores not ratings. As the number doesn't even effect your pay I find little logical reason but they think it helps to keep people positive. Words do have power, especially to those who follow a deterministic path.
    Consider this, what stops you killing someone were you sufficiently motivated? Most would reply it's illegal but that only sets out what will happen to you. It does not hamper your ability to continue.
    every language has a set of words that's a powder keg waiting for a match as well

    of course not killing people often traces back to certain philosophies or religions, which are themselves a collection of words and its funny what you can figure out about their histories through etymology

    and before we had writing we had words and we used them to pass down the things that we considered important, changing a word or two over time, a mistranslation or two and you have a war or schism

    or of course you might just be referred to as an unfriendly company to work for because someone got their feelings hurt when you called a hat a hat
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #8
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Possibly the best disparity comes from a recently watched debate including the notable Christopher Hitchens (though his inclusion is not relevant).

    If you look at the evolution of man you see certain patterns which indicate design. Ergo there was a designer. That would be using our language to define reality. Where as the reality is, there is indication of design. It is only our comprehension which then extends to a designer.

    (At least, I think that sheds some light.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #9
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    For those who aren't in the know: The mapping of language to meaning has a whole field associated with it -- semiotics. Very neat stuff.

    I'd venture that an ExxJ may recognize that language doesn't necessarily correlate one-to-one with real things and ideas; but they'd believe that for all intents and purposes it does and so screw it just call the spade a spade and get on with it already
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  10. #10
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post

    I'd venture that an ExxJ may recognize that language doesn't necessarily correlate one-to-one with real things and ideas; but they'd believe that for all intents and purposes it does and so screw it just call the spade a spade and get on with it already
    Not true. An EJ requires the world around them to obey rules, themselves are free to do whatever they like. They reason it afterwards.
    EJ means an extroverted judging function which is the primary function of the type. They organise the world. They, themselves, can vary widely.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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