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  1. #11
    is indra's Avatar
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    You are touching on various subjects from Kant to Wittgenstein.

    (Transcedental) Noumenal Analytic + Language Games etc

  2. #12
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    You are touching on various subjects from Kant to Wittgenstein.

    (Transcedental) Noumenal Analytic + Language Games etc
    The thoughts do cross philosophy and also observational comedy.

    It fascinates me. So many people can't see the item for the labels they have applied to it. Almost like not seeing your monitor for the number of post-it notes on it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #13
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Not true. An EJ requires the world around them to obey rules, themselves are free to do whatever they like. They reason it afterwards.
    EJ means an extroverted judging function which is the primary function of the type. They organise the world. They, themselves, can vary widely.
    The mapping has to happen somewhere along the line, though. Virtually everyone, EJs included, realizes that the word "pencil" doesn't refer to one particular instrument. Lots of people, including EJs, realize that there are words in other languages that don't even map to words (or even phrases) in English, let alone a particular object. Words are also 'overloaded'; a spade is that lil' tool, but also a suit in a deck of cards. Even EJs would be in a world of hurt if they recognized none of this.

    Take 'spade' as a tool. The word spade may, to some, (a) refer to merely the collection of molecules that have banded together and have been manufactured into a particular shape that's been regarded over time and experience as suitable for digging small patches of earth, and in our taxonomy, it's one of many instances of a 'tool' ..... or (b) It's a spade. You find it at Home Depot. You dig with it.

    It's all about where one places his mental focus -- what he prioritizes (even subconsciously). Both (a) and (b) are, for the most part, true; and people of all types (though not all people) will recognize both to be true. One may prioritize that first line of thought (a), another the other (b). As a definition, (b) is simpler, controlled, and lends itself to an EJ to 'organize.' To the EJ, (a) is way too loose, complex, and 'missing the point'; and so the EJ would prefer (b).

    As you say, an EJ may return to (a) only 'after the fact,' since it's only subservient to his priorities. To him, the external world's 'rules' come first (including the funciton of a spade), but he's not necessarily unaware of what lies underneath.


    [There's some pun to be made about using a spade to dig deeper, but I cba to make it]
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  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    The mapping has to happen somewhere along the line, though. Virtually everyone, EJs included, realizes that the word "pencil" doesn't refer to one particular instrument. Lots of people, including EJs, realize that there are words in other languages that don't even map to words (or even phrases) in English, let alone a particular object. Words are also 'overloaded'; a spade is that lil' tool, but also a suit in a deck of cards. Even EJs would be in a world of hurt if they recognized none of this.

    Take 'spade' as a tool. The word spade may, to some, (a) refer to merely the collection of molecules that have banded together and have been manufactured into a particular shape that's been regarded over time and experience as suitable for digging small patches of earth, and in our taxonomy, it's one of many instances of a 'tool' ..... or (b) It's a spade. You find it at Home Depot. You dig with it.

    It's all about where one places his mental focus -- what he prioritizes (even subconsciously). Both (a) and (b) are, for the most part, true; and people of all types (though not all people) will recognize both to be true. One may prioritize that first line of thought (a), another the other (b). As a definition, (b) is simpler, controlled, and lends itself to an EJ to 'organize.' To the EJ, (a) is way too loose, complex, and 'missing the point'; and so the EJ would prefer (b).

    As you say, an EJ may return to (a) only 'after the fact,' since it's only subservient to his priorities. To him, the external world's 'rules' come first (including the funciton of a spade), but he's not necessarily unaware of what lies underneath.


    [There's some pun to be made about using a spade to dig deeper, but I cba to make it]
    I wasn't referring to an EJ as being unaware. Just highlighting that they are externally consistent not internally. They are large and can contain multitudes.

    As for the spade, true on both counts. However some will think of a spade when they need to make a hole, others will use something which replicates a spades purpose possibly by using a spade itself (though this is really a sideline in the larger thinking tbf).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Not quite sure what you mean, to be honest. Do you mean that our version of reality is shaped by language? Because I agree with that. Not that language has any effect on reality, because reality is objective and exists apart from us. But I do think that our perception of reality is subjective, and is influenced by language.

    Linguistics has always fascinated me. I think primarily in words, and when I've taken multiple intelligence tests, I've always scored highly in linguistics. But I know that there are other people who think in pictures (also known as visual thinking). Is their concept of reality different than mine? I imagine it would be. It's interesting to think about.
    Nailed it in one.
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  6. #16
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    You are touching on various subjects from Kant to Wittgenstein.

    (Transcedental) Noumenal Analytic + Language Games etc
    "I didn't know you read Kant."
    "Can't read, you mean..." /rim-shot>
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #17
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I just started some self study in Semiotics. It's a very in depth subject, apparently I won't get the most out of a textbook until I study some general Philosophy, Kant and Linguistics.

    I think partially, but definitely not mostly, in words. I guess that's why I am very much interested in words in connection to meaning, sometimes they can be a struggle for me. I've heard similar things from Fi'ers about not having the language to describe feelings and impressions. I tend to think in the form of concepts in the form of a kind of sensory impressions and a sort of spatial relationship. I also exercise at understanding objects past their labels.

    It's obvious to me that language in a way obscures the nature of things. But even more so, the nature of an object and its impact on us in the form of usefulness and relevance to our well-being informs such things. And there is another layer that effects our thoughts as much as, or even more so than language, and that's learned narrative (myth).

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